The CEO of RM Williams was over recently, as part of a company focus on the UK – they recently opened shops in Marlow and Cambridge, and are planning others.

I took the opportunity to interview the CEO Paul Grosmann, as I was interested to hear about the challenges of manufacturing in Australia – something we’ve never covered – and about the changes the company has made recently.

It turned into a really interesting wide-ranging conversation. About the identity of a brand like RM Williams that evokes such passion in Australia, but also how brands and shops in general move their identity, with greater or lesser success.

Paul, who came to the job from years at Nike, was warm, honest and open – the kind of guy that begins a story by saying ‘I probably shouldn’t be saying this’ and you can see has to consciously pull himself back onto message. It was a pleasure chatting with him. 

What changes has RM been through in the past few years Paul?

Well, we’ve had new owners for the past five years [investment company Tattarang], which brought it back under Australian ownership, and I’ve been impressed how much they’ve put their hands in their pockets to be honest – it’s enabled us to double production in Australia, and introduce new manufacturing lines for types of women’s footwear.

How had things been since Covid?

There was a period right after Covid where demand was huge, and even three years ago we were struggling to meet demand in Australia, let alone anywhere else. But things have settled down now and that’s allowed us to start improving different parts of the offering.

Like what?

Well the apparel is the most obvious thing. I don’t think that had been in a good place for while.

In what way?

The quality wasn’t always there, but also it was a question of identity – I’m not sure all the lines were ones that fit the identity of RM Williams.

That’s interesting – how do you expand the identity of a boot to include other things such as clothing?

I guess the first thing is quality – you want the two things to be made to the same quality level, and RM has always that reputation for a certain toughness or longevity. But then there’s style or maybe type of apparel – RM has been around for so long that it has quite an entrenched identity and associations.

Yes I’ve seen on Permanent Style, and among friends in Australia, the kind of passions RM can evoke.

We get a lot of feedback, let’s put it that way!

In fact, in the first few months in the job I spent a lot of time going to see retailers round Australia. I went into this shop in the bush – a heartland customer – and they were very upset at the catalogue, pointing at the cover with real anger. “This is not the guy! I recognise nothing in this person,” she said. It was a picture of a model in quite a fashion-forward outfit, and for her that wasn’t RM Williams at all.

I don’t think many people over here will realise that RM Williams has long published its own magazine, Outback, but it’s much more about the lifestyle than the boots. 

Yes that’s right - often the only RM thing in there is an advert. But we’ve publishing that for 30 years, and RM Williams has been publishing titles since the 1940s. 

It’s not surprising people feel there’s a very particular identity there.

Absolutely, and it does mean you have to maintain a very close sense of who you are. It’s hard because one of the great things about an RM Williams boot I think is that it’s so versatile. Certainly in Australia it’s the kind of thing you can wear in the outback, but also to the office. And of course that kind of versatility is very relevant to people at the moment.

So returning to the clothing, what does that mean you’re more likely to focus on? 

Well a good example is the five-pocket trousers we’re known for, like the moleskin. That’s been around since the 1940s and comes from the same roots. [Lucas Nicholson at PS has had a pair, and loves them]. The rest of the apparel should be equally tied in. 

We’re not a proper workwear company like a Filson or Carhartt, but we’re also not as refined as a Northampton shoe. 

It’s interesting to think about that kind of brand extension, because so many heritage brands seem to struggle to get it right - to evolve their product or the way its portrayed, but not lose customers that have a particular connection with it. 

Right - it’s something you can do but often has to be done slowly. 

In footwear I think Edward Green is a good example - when they started doing their Polperro loafers [below], which are completely unstructured and have a cemented sole, it seemed like a big jump. But in recent years they’ve moved more gradually, introducing softer waxed leathers, unlined makes, and lightweight soles, while keeping the same styles and sole construction. 

That’s interesting. It is easier if the ownership is there to support you I’ve found. Also sometimes it’s harder the stronger your identity is - the more fixed idea a customer has of who you are. 

True. I think it’s one reason some bespoke tailors find it hard to adapt and evolve, or do so in a subtle way. It also doesn’t help if you have overdemand for what you’re already doing - Alden in the US hasn’t really changed at all compared to other shoemakers for example, but it hasn’t really had to. 

That’s one reason it’s so hard for us I think. It also doesn’t help that we’re so tied up with Australian identity in general - there are so few brands that embrace it, Aesop and others feel more international than Australian. 

But I’m not sure how much it matters in other markets - does a UK customer care that the boots are made in Australia? Is it even a positive thing for them? For us it’s important but just as much because it means we have transparency on our whole supply chain, and greater control as a result. 

What do you think, does it make sense to emphasis how Australian we are?

I think it does, yes, but that’s because it suits the product. The rugged nature of the boot fits the rugged image of Australia. It would only be a problem if that wasn’t selling and you needed to really change direction. 

For Permanent Style readers at least, it’s a plus that the boots are all made in Australia. What are the challenges there?

People, basically. There are other issues of course, but people is the main one. It was one of the greatest pleasures of my professional life to go round the workshop, it’s wonderful. There are notices lined up on the wall for people that have been there for 40 years, 50 years. 

But young people today will not do that kind of single job on a boot for all those years - they need more structure, more meaningful career journeys. We’ve introduced more apprenticeships to help there, but it’s still a struggle. 

You mentioned I think that you’ve managed to almost double production since the new owners took over though - that’s pretty impressive. I don’t know any other heritage shoe manufacturer that’s been able to put together that kind of growth. 

You’re right, and that’s the only reason we’ve been able to look again at expanding our retail. Let’s say our owners are ambitious and they’re very pleased at the moment! 

Do you think that helps engender change, when production is expanding like that?

Yes perhaps. We keep the identity of the made-in-Australia, but we can start doing other types of shoes. People have a very close connection to where the shoes are made - that’s why the boots have always had the address written on the pull tab, so people knew where to return them to when the boots needed repairing. 

I didn’t know that, that’s great. I can see how that creates a sense of a personal connection to the factory. 

The other thing we’re hoping to do with great production capacity, is bring back bespoke at some point, or perhaps it’s better called made-to-order. 

Did RM used to do bespoke? 

Oh yes, it used to be you could come in and have anything you want, people had their own lasts and they’d order strange colours and designs. 

We’re not going to do bespoke lasts, but when I looked back over all the special orders we used to do - before that was put on hold - I could see most requests were small things, different widths, different sizes on each foot etc. We want to make that possible again.

Sounds great Paul - hard to think of a brand trajectory that feels more suited to us and our readers, given the focus on manufacturing, repairs, and quality across the rest of the clothing. People will be glad to hear it. 

Thanks Simon. It’s nice to focus on the UK more as well. We wanted to for a while but we just didn’t have the capacity. I’m off to Edinburgh tonight to look at spaces there too, so we should have a shop in Scotland soon too. 

Great - have a nice trip and pop into our friends at Dick’s if you have a chance. 

Absolutely, will do.