I'm delighted to say that the latest addition to the schedule of brands visiting the Permanent Style showroom is Rubato, who will be here in two weeks, May 15th-17th, Thursday to Saturday.
They'll be in the showroom 10am-6pm, presenting Spring/Summer pieces - so not the lambswool knits and other autumn/winter things (the range is a bit too big to bring everything). I'm really interested to try the two new jacket models.
No appointment necessary, just come along any time during those dates and times. A lot of you will have been here already now, but just press the buzzer for us at 37 Harley Street and come on up. We're that lovely Bath-stone building on the corner.
In other trunk show-related news, The Anthology will be back in mid-July and Assisi will be back in the second week of September (the former comes three times a year, the latter twice).
New York dates for the Permanent Style pop-up are also confirmed - October 16th to 18th. The London equivalent will probably be a couple of weeks afterwards.
We have a dedicated events page now where all this is listed by the way. So you can check in there on any updates or to be reminded about dates. Rather than having to find these old articles each time. See, we do listen!
Fantastic. I’m hoping there will be the officers chinos to try on.
I’m excited for the New York pop-up in October. As it happens I’ve booked an appointment with Steven Hitchcock in New York a fortnight prior, and will likely be looking to commission an MTM suit from The Armoury around the same time. Plus a New York trip is an excellent opportunity to shop at Drake’s, J Mueser, Paul Stuart, and Geneva Custom Shirts. Adding PS to that list will be the icing on the cake.
Lovely. Looking forward to seeing you Steven
Rubato has very interesting products. But nearly all of them are outside of the range that I am willing to spend. The new linen slacks, which I am sure are great, are EUR 535 without VAT, thus EUR 640 with VAT.
I have Rota Satorial Trousers and they are considerably less, around EUR 500for linen, and can be bought on sale minus 30% if you look long and hard and are not fixated on a specific model. The more casual Rotasport Trousers, also good, can be had for EUR 350 and often on sale for EUR 250 or so.
They’re 535 EUR including everything, tax duties and shipping. FYI
Yes, that appears to be true. Until recently, Rubato listed the prices without VAT, they appear to have changed that very recently.
yep, in the US the new linen pants cost $685 (before tariffs?), which in my view is insanely expensive for off the rack slacks. i believe they are now more expensive than Stoffa’s MTM program. but i guess people keep buying their products so they feel they can go higher. personally i don’t even consider buying directly from them anymore since i became aware their US pricing is somewhat disingenuous. on the bright side, thanks to PS you can find plenty of other brands with more realistic prices (at least for now!)
I suspect to many people, even £100 would not be realistic for a pair of trousers. Sometimes it’s best to accept that you may not be the target market rather than being vocally critical.
We always welcome opinions on PS and nothing wrong with being critical – but often comments around price in particular aren’t very nuanced. As you say, some people are not the target market, and also price comparisons with other products are often not a straight comparison. (Quite apart from the aspects of buying from a brand that aren’t purely about the product.)
To chime in with my two cents, I like Rubato and purchased from them in the past and hope to continue to do so in the future as well – but the prices, of not only them but also of all MTM makers with good quality, are definitely moving towards unaffordable for normal Joe.
Thx
SS
I agree with this point. As someone on a comfortable but definitely not excessive income it felt like I could regularly shop at the likes of Anglo, Rubato, Brycelands etc a few years ago. Now it feels like I have to be really careful, limiting to maybe 1-2 purchases per year at most. That is maybe not a bad thing and just represents the economics. However, as a potentially ‘core’ reader of PS it may be helpful to know how my spending patterns have changed.
I have several rubato products and I am happy with them. I must say I do compare the PS polo that I just bought to the Rubato cotton polos (which I also own) and the price of the latter for pure cotton is bit hard to swallow.
Simon and Chris, I think you’re right that it is frequently people who are “not in the target market” re: price who are offended by a given brand’s pricing. But in this case and some others (e.g. Drakes, Stoffa) what seems to bother many is when they were “in the target” a year or two ago but no longer are — if you understand what I mean. In some of these cases, the clothes are literally identical now vs. then. This is where brands risk backlash.
It’s a good point Ajay. I think there’s tension there with quite a lot of start-up brands where it’s inevitable they will evolve over time – find the kind of brand they want to be, where they want to spend money and what kind of product to focus on – but customers naturally assume that once they launch, they’ll never change. We are used to attaching very specific values to a brand – to that name – and then find it hard to change. It’s an interesting feature of modern capitalism
“I think there’s tension there with quite a lot of start-up brands where it’s inevitable they will evolve over time – find the kind of brand they want to be, where they want to spend money and what kind of product to focus on – but customers naturally assume that once they launch, they’ll never change. ”
i think you’re right about this – for one thing, start-ups begin with a lack of trust capital (it’s very hard for a potential customer to tell if the product is high-quality, if the brand is reliable, etc). with time and if they’re good, they’ll acquire a good reputation, and it makes sense to my mind to charge for that. even though as an existing customer it’s sometimes hard to accept it, because you’re now paying for an invisible extra (the product is the same; you’re just paying for the guarantee of quality), so it could seem like the brand is “selling out” or overcharging just because it can.
He is maybe not the target market but the summer products are much more expensive than the winter ones. Every brand can sell and promote their products as they wish and think is the best for them, but to me its very pleasing to read the comment of someone who thought exactly the same about the pricing as i did. I like the style of rubato a lot and could wear many of their clothes. But since i buy only 2 or 3 pieces every year i didnt have yet the chance to try them. If the prices start going up like drakes did, i will look elsewere and im not going to be the only one. I am from Greece and given the weather and how much i have to change clothes at summer with 35-40C the idea of paying 500 for a pair of summer trousers is not for me. I would like though a nice linen trousers pair in the price range of around 200 euros. So instead of arguing about prices maybe better give some other options, for those that dont belong to the rubato target group.
All potentially fair points, but does that make the pricing “disingenuous”?
Chris, i wasn’t really very clear about this, to be honest i find it a little awkward to talk about it because i met Oliver and Carl and they seem live very nice guys, but the reason i called their pricing strategy “disingenuous” is that they charge taxes for US customers that they actually do not have to pay. this amounts to charging different prices in different countries, which i would say is disingenuous if not made explicit. (for example, these pants cost 535 euros including VAT in France, but $695 in the US; going from around 450 euro pre-VAT to almost $700 is a 40% mark-up).
but yes, i should have distinguished better between those two issues. obviously, there’s nothing disingenuous in itself about charging $700 (or any other amount) for a pair of pants – the main issue i was considering was whether there was any value to that offer.
Bogdan, an obvious 40% mark up on US customers is an obvious 40% mark up, no need to feel awkward stating the facts!
Folks using this forum are in a higher income bracket and likely can afford just about any bespoke or expensive clothing item if they sacrifice enough. The whole target market discussion is a group of well off people pin-pricking each other… it’s funny.
i think it’s fine to comment on pricing and whether something is good value for the money even for things you can’t afford. especially so when it comes to brands that are, or claim to be, about more than the bottom line. the comparison with Stoffa seemed appropriate to me since the product seemed very similar – excellent service, same style of pant, high quality cloth, even the cloth weights are in the same ballpark!
i do agree with Simon’s general point that it’s hard to be nuanced about this stuff as there are always going to be small differences (and those differences will be more important to some) between the products compared, but i think in this case the product is pretty much as similar as you’ll ever get (well, except Stoffa’s offer is for MTM, if i’m not mistaken).
Hey Bogdan,
To be honest, I wouldn’t say the products are that similar. Rubato are coming much more from the workwear side of things and their materials are harder-wearing, less soft and luxe than Stoffa. The cuts are also a little different and the details have historically been more tailored, quite a lot of side adjustors and turn-ups, though that has also evolved and is dependent on what customers want too
I truthfully don’t know why anyone would spend that much on their linen jacket or pants (or the shorts) unless they simply like the idea of wearing Rubato. That’s the only real reason. There better quality products at better prices and with equally good (or better) provenance available.
I think it is fair to have a discussion regards Rubato’s pricing and products. It’s seems more than a price discussion. If anything I would say they have repositioned themselves and provide a slightly different product-aesthetic to when they launched. They’ve clearly decided to go more upmarket and “delicate” with the non-pariel line. That’s clearly more of a focus now. Some will continue to enjoy and buy the brand, some will not. What’s sad to see is the jump in pricing of the basic core collection as well. I still like the brand but can no longer justify the pricing on a personal level but that’s fine, there’s plenty of choice out there.
Permanent Style has always been about quality first, that’s what I enjoy, it focusses on items that are made well and last, in terms of style and durability. There are plenty of other websites that run ‘Best trousers for under £200’ etc articles if that is what you are after. I would rather compare quality than price, then if I can’t afford the quality I want so be it. It would be a lot more constructive and in-keeping with Permanent Style if the comments focussed on the differences in quality when they talk about cheaper options. What examples are there of cheaper options at the same or better quality, and back it up with facts? Personally I have a few Rubato items and found the quality excellent, I would love to have more but yes they are expensive, I don’t expect and company of this size and quality to be able to produce things cheaply.
Lovely building indeed.
I know the woman on the lower storey is holding a scroll but I do like to imagine it’s a piece of cloth instead.
The linen tennis jacket looks quite nice.
Is the PS Showroom in London a pop-up shop or a permanent location? Dates and Hours? I will be in London 22 May.
It’s a permanent location but only open for events such as this one
Ahh, too bad!
I have a slightly specific view on this: I do live in a country where the official unemployment rate is 32%, the real unemployment rate of people under 25 is 62%, and an average salary (if you have a job) is about £1000. That’s the background. Luckily I am doing well, and if i wanted to i could buy myself some nice chinos for £490. And another pair, and another pair. In fact with a gun to my head i wouldn’t be able to tell you any account balance of mine accurately to a £1000.
Yet, it just feels wrong to buy this.
I just don’t have the heart to do it. If I get myself nice pants for half that money, i can literally support a number of school classes to buy books, or a full several streets of people in an informal settlement to have the first warm meal of the week. And I just don’t think any pants are worth more than that.
I would love to hear from Simon or others who have had a chance to visit the Rubato pop up. Particularly interested in their new range, the tennis jacket looks great, wondering if it’s more casual than a standard tailored linen jacket. New polos and RYC collection look interesting. Any stand outs or particularly popular items?
Sadly I can’t attend the pop up in person.
Hey Henry,
I’d say the tennis jacket is more casual than a regular tailored jacket, yes, and it’s a really nice fit and cut.
The polos have been popular I think, as well as the linen trousers. Let me know if there’s anything else in particular you’d like feedback on!
Hi Simon,
Curious if you had a chance to try the Cream HRT, or the two new RYC knits.
Really on the fence; especially with the HRT trousers (and if you sized up).
I did on the cream, though I’ve tried those in the past. They are really nice – my only question is whether I’d wear them as well as the white jeans I already have from the guys, but if you find white jeans are too much for you or you want something smarter, these are very nice.
The heavy indigo boat club knit is awesome, though a little unsure on the fit. I’d like to see one with some fading too from the natural indigo.
I did size up to 33 on the herringbone trousers but that’s a great fit on me.
Hope that’s helpful!
Thanks Simon. I have been looking at the Drakes games blazers and Anthology Goodman jackets, would you say the tennis jacket could be used in a similar way? I wasn’t sure if it was more structured and less casual.
Not more structured, but the linen and navy colour make it a little smarter, certainly than the games blazers
Would you recommend the tennis jacket as an alternative for readers who usually wear bespoke tailoring, or is it more of an option for those who typically wear jackets like the games or goodman jackets? Also, if worn as a separate, is there a risk that Irish linen might look like the orphaned half of a suit? I seem to recall you once mentioned that Irish linen might not be the best choice for a jacket fabric—please correct me if I’m mistaken.
I think it depends on your body shape. The less standard it is, the more differences you would notice from bespoke. It was certainly a good enough fit on me that I would wear it.
There is that risk with linen, yes, and more so with Irish linen, but it can be fairly easily mitigated. Full article on that coming up soon
Which size fit you best? I’ve had my eye on that jacket for a while and was hoping to wear it casually like a chore coat. I’m just not entirely sure whether the color and fabric will lend themselves to that kind of styling. Maybe I’ll be able to decide once your article is out.
I’m not sure it would be so good as a casual chore coat, more a smart/casual piece that fits with the kind of other things Rubato sells, and they’re style. I was a 48
What’s the reason you didn’t get the tennis jacket when the fit was great on you?? Would there be any point in making this kind of unstructed jacket in bespoke?
No I don’t think so, partly because most tailors wouldn’t be able to make it completely unstructured. I didn’t get it because I don’t really need it between navy linen bespoke jackets I have, and a navy linen overshirt
Did you end up getting the tennis jacket? I was curious what size fits on you and whether it works well with jeans. Also I’ve been wondering what might’ve pushed the price up so much, especially since it’s just an unstructured piece.
I didn’t, but the fit is really nice, an impressive one for RTW. It would be smart with jeans but definitely work, it’s so unstructured.
Price encompasses quite a few things obviously, but being unstructured and completely unlined can be more work than structured, unless we’re talking handwork in that structure
I popped into the pop-up on Saturday and tried on some shorts and polos. The fit and quality seemed very nice. However, I was told that the cotton polos could be machine washed at 30C whereas the website says “Care instructions: Hand wash / Dry clean”
Any ideas which is correct?
Best to get more advice directly from them, but in my experience the polos can be washed at 30, the problem is that care instructions often have to be very conservative – because you can’t put all information on there. We’ve had that issue with some of our products, where you can machine wash them but there is a little shrinkage, that nearly all comes back with an iron. But it’s hard to explain that on a label, and if you put machine wash, people complain when they don’t really use much care at all
All of mine have been machine washed at 30 to no issue
I like the tennis jacket. One detail I rarely see in tailoring is the topstitching used throughout the entire jacket. What might be the reason for this? Is it more durable than other types of stitching? Or is it because of the heavy linen used?
It’s not that uncommon on Italian jackets, and someone like the Anthology uses it quite a bit.
There is often top stitching close to the edge on other parts of a jacket by the way, but that’s less visible
I’d like to ask if you like the Rubato NONPAREIL COLLO AMERICANO polo. I think the design looks really cool, but the price has been holding me back from purchasing it.
Well, the price is about the quality and the uniqueness of the model and fit. It’s still good value for a fine Italian knit like that. I thought you’d have more questions about the style, but if you don’t then go for it
Thanks. I also wanted to ask about how to style it, as it’s not a very common type of knitwear. In addition, between the short and long sleeves, which do you think would be more useful for that style?
Hi Mike,
My apologies, I was actually thinking of the Collo Inglese. The Americano is a pretty standard polo shirt collar – a little deeper in the placket but otherwise quite normal. Why did you think it was unusual or what were you unsure of?
The vertical ribbing detail on the knit was quite unusual for me. Which do you think would be more useful in that style — short sleeves or long sleeves?
I don’t think the vertical ribbing will make that much difference to be honest Mike. It’s maybe slightly more unusual, maybe slightly sportier, but I wouldn’t think about that aspect really. Both long and short sleeves would be equally useful I would have thought.
Do you have anything similar to that fabric by any chance? I’m leaning towards getting something with long sleeves since it could work across spring, summer, and autumn, whereas short sleeves would probably only be good for summer. It’s not a huge deal but I missed the pop up and haven’t been able to get a proper sense of the materials
Yes I have, and if you want it go to across those seasons I’d go with long sleeve. That would work well. You could wear it on its own or put a vest or thin tee underneath
Great site!
Simon
i cannot find the relevant thread and may have asked this before.
i have just looked the Rubato site and noticed they have their lambs wool sweaters but i thought they had previously done a softer version of lambswool. I forgot what they called it. Has it gone? maybe called ‘ supersoft’?
have you noticed whether their lambswool is significantly softer than other makes?
I’m not sure what you’re referring to I’m afraid Joners. I’d say their lambswool is similar