We're doing our first ever sale on the PS Shop today. I thought it would make a good subject for a post as well, as I find the psychology and perception of sales interesting.
People that are into crafted clothing (such as myself) are naturally sceptical of sales. There are multiple reasons, but the main one I think is that we've grown up seeing big brands do big sales (a lot of their stock) very often (in the middle of seasons) at big discounts (up to 75%).
Combine this with stories about brands making products specifically for outlet malls (which certainly happens) and it's hard not to feel that sales reveal the true value of the clothes, which is much less than the ticket price. Brands are dishonest, and only a fool would buy outside the sale.
Now here's the flip side - a view from someone who started as a pure consumer, but has now run a shop for almost 10 years.
If the ultimate profit margin you make on a product (including lost packages, credit card fees, fuel surcharges and all that rubbish) is around 20%, then if you sell 80 of the 100 sweaters you bought that season, you make no money.
You don't make 80% of the profit, you make nothing, zero. The sales mean you’ve managed to pay all your costs (and so not lost money) but all the profit is sitting there in those last 20 sweaters.
Given this, it's understandable to try and sell some of them at a discount. Otherwise you won’t be able to pay yourself, or indeed buy any stock for the next season, when you have to do it all over again.
Even on sale, you won’t get rid of everything. Because there will always be something ridiculous left like 11 XLs and nothing else. It always seems to happen, no matter how carefully you analyse the statistics.
There are a few subtleties to this.
One is that we’re assuming you only sell the product for one season. That’s usually the case with fashion brands, but not with classic menswear ones. If you sell for multiple years, you can just carry across stock to the following year.
The flip side, though, is that if you want to keep something in stock most of the time, you effectively have stock that’s always there, that you can never sell, a pure sunk cost - until you eventually discontinue the product, which could be years later.
These are some of the reasons a sale can make sense. And sometimes menswear brands start with the idea of never discounting, but end up doing so when they realise the economics. Private White VC did that years ago, and Anderson & Sheppard now have an ‘odds and ends’ section of their website that specifically reflects this.
It also brings us onto discussing the kinds of sale - and the dangers inherent in each.
There is a big difference between putting one coat on sale in XXL after offering it for three years, and putting the whole of your stock on sale at the end of every season.
Sales should probably be evaluated in terms of those factors:
- How often they are (once a year, twice a year, every bloody month)
- How much stock they include (it varies from 1% to 100%)
- How big a discount there is (also varies a lot, from 25% to 75%)
Brands used to hold ‘sample sales’ that were actually samples - pieces that were made during the design process but never went into production. Today a ‘sample sale’ can mean just a normal sale of entirely normal stock. Except maybe it’s sort-of-hidden somewhere, like in a different building.
It’s one more thing that makes people cynical, and think all brands to some extent dishonest.
This difference between types of sale is what determines the effect on a brand’s reputation, for me.
The reason to avoid going on sale too often, with too much stock, or too deep, is that customers will start to just wait for the sale. If the thing they want is always in the sale - and so they never miss out on it by waiting - why would they do anything else? They also start to think of the value of the product as being that discounted price.
These days I find myself buying more things at full price than I used to - because I can afford it, but also because I don’t want to wait for the sale and then miss out. I need fewer things and fewer things are really special, different to anything I’ve seen before, and so not easily substituted by something from another brand or in another season. I buy at full price so I don’t miss out, but I wouldn’t if I knew it was going to be on sale in a month’s time.
This also brings up whether sales are good for bringing in different, less affluent customers. A well-done sale makes you more accessible, gives them a way into the brand, and chances are they have more holes in their wardrobe so they're less fussy.
Given all this, when we decided Permanent Style should do a sale for the first time, I wanted it to be limited in the ways set out above. It will be:
- Only once a year (January)
- Only products that are being discontinued (rare for us)
- Only at 30% off (hopefully enough to make it attractive, but not enough to suggest lower value)
There are several reasons we haven’t done sales in the past. One is that we were smaller and there weren’t that many products that had run a long time. Another is that we often took small amounts of stock and sold out of them quickly. Buying more means it can be available for longer, to more people, but also makes it more likely to have too much, in an awkward set of sizes.
Doing the sale each year will hopefully mean good clothes go to good homes, with people that maybe couldn’t afford them otherwise. The last thing anyone wants is for these beautiful things to go to waste. And the money will make it easier to introduce new products, or carry a wider range.
The PS sale is only small, as you can see on the page here. Often there's only piece left (eg in the trench or speckled donegal). But hopefully this piece shows some of the thinking behind it, and you think we’ve struck the right balance.
Hi Simon, I understand the navy donegal and this version of the suede bomber will not be available. You have another version of the navy donegal, I assume it’s the one taking over. But what about the suede bomber? And, do you intend for the next season to propose a brown version of the Donegal? Thanks
Hey Gab,
The suede bomber has been great but the suede overshirt has been a lot more popular, so we’re hoping by having just one suede piece to be able to offer more sizes and colours in the overshirt.
We’re not sure on donegal coats for this winter, but I think we are going to be offering a pre-order in the spring again in old colours, which will hopefully give people access to any colours they want. (Another way to offer more without taking on lots of stock, but can only be done by certain manufacturers and when you or they are prepared to stock the material)
Here’s a vote in favour for a pre-order on the Donegals – the prospect of being able to get one in brown would be a dream come true!
Sorry if this has been asked elsewhere, but do you know if there might be a PS pop-up in London in the best few months? I’ve never tried on the Donegal and would feel more comfortable trying one on (for size etc) before making a presumably non-refundable pre-order. 🙂
Hey Will,
Good point. Yes there will be a pop-up in late March or early April, and we’ll try to align it with the pre-order period. The issue, however, will be that there are hardly any donegals left in stock, so even if we do a pop-up, most sizes won’t be available there to try. Not much we can do about that unfortunately – except Lucas and I can bring in our M and XL!
simon, the bomber page mentions all your measurements (very similar to mine) but doesn’t say which jacket size you are wearing in the pics.
It does in the text John. For clarity:
– The navy is Medium
– The brown is also Medium, but with three pictures deliberately showing the fit difference between a Small and a Medium on me
There is more detail on what the differences are, and why I wear the Medium but others might prefer the Small, on the launch article here (also linked to on that product page)
My small is a bit, well, small for me now, so happy to loan it for people to try. I’m sure you can crowd source the range across readers.
I love my Brown Donegal, particularly its weight (900g+). I would be interested in a pre order if there were heavy options available. Alternatively, will the English tweed coat be offered for next winter ?
Hey Noel,
No the options will all be in the standard weight, as they were last time.
The English Tweed will be available, but perhaps only in a new colour.
WIl the new colour mantain the herringbone?
Yes
Great, thank you, Simon. One final question if I may: Will it be on the dark side (like the navy or brown donegals) or more medium like the greys?
I think I should stop dropping hints at this point Noel, and wait until we can be more concrete about it. Particularly as I haven’t seen the final thing myself yet!
I’ll chip in here and express my enthusiasm about the possibility of pre-sales on the donegal. I love my cream & black herringbone version but missed the dark navy this year and the brown way back when…
Very excited by the prospect of rectifying that problem this year!
Nice, thanks Jonathan
Hi Simon,
Do you think there’s a good chance that the original navy donegal color will be offered during the spring preorders? I love that color the most, and missed it last time 😭
The more speckly one? No it won’t I’m afraid Mike
Ah okay that’s sad to know ㅜㅜ
What about the old charcoal color with specks? Thanks a lot in advance for your responses Simon!
Yes, that will be available
Hi Simon, apologies as this is somewhat unrelated but will there be xs sizes for summer stock of The Finest Polo?
No, sorry Luke there won’t
Very good explanation of profit margins , discounts and sales .
On that note would it be true to say MTM never needs to discount and has the surety of ‘proper’ pricing as there is no surplus stock , across the size stock etc ?
Despite everything we know we’ve all been conditioned to love a good sale .
Yes, very true. I think that’s one reason it takes a while for people to become completely turned off by a brand that does lots of sales, but when they do it can be very long lasting.
Anything that is made to order, like MTM or bespoke, doesn’t have the problem with stock no. There may be some other smaller drivers depending on the business – for example if you have a lot of permanent staff (like a big bespoke house) or lots of stores for an MTM brand (like some bigger brands) then slow periods or cash flow might make a sale attractive. But the justification is a lot less.
There can be sales in MTM (or Bespoke)…
1) They may hold stock of fabrics which they want rid of
2) Their suppliers may have a sale so it’s a pass through rather than making more margin
3) It could be considered more akin to a service than goods seller in which case sales can be to increase volumes in otherwise quiet periods. Certainly a number of the City tailors have sales between Xmas and NYE which given many people are on holiday etc so not coming into the City they’d probably be otherwise dead
My only humble suggestion would be to make it immediately clear on the sale page itself, where applicable, that there is only item in xxl available, or whatever. That would help I think mitigate any impression to the casual observer that 75% of stock in all sizes is being offloaded
That’s a good point Peter, we’ll look into the most effective way to do that. I think we only had one of the speckled navy coats and it’s already sold, so hopefully not a problem we’ll have for long!
Agreed. Removes the moment of dissapointment when you find out it’s just XXL. I think Morjas do this where they list the product with exact size in their Archive section. 🙂
If you’re margin is 20% on the total cost of a sale (inc stock) your have made a profit by the time you have sold 80 of the 100 items under both accrual and cash accounting as in both you haven’t incurred the non-stock sales costs on the remaining 20.
You also have the “B” stock sales, be that small defects in manufacturing or customer returns that aren’t perfect. This can not only attract new customers, as you suggest, but can also upsell to existing customers (eg the C&J bench grade customer who buys the hand grade b-stock in the current sales) which may simply liquidate imperfect stock or sell them on the benefits of the more premium line.
Slightly more worrying was a conversation with a sales assistant of a brand well known to those on here who stated they had “white sticker” stock items which are to be sold at full price despite imperfections but will be included in a future B stock sales if the volumes build up but as a regular customer they could discount them for me now if they had any in the model I was asking about.
Agree with the other comments though that constant sales devalue your brand but occasional sales of dead stock are pragmatic but will still impact general sales if they’re an annual event so regulars may wait just to see.
A tad pedantic Bob, don’t you think? An illustrative example benefits from simplicity. If fulfilment costs were say 10%, the breakeven number is 78 items. Hardly worth nit-picking over.
I think, Bob, you may have missed Simon’s point on the example of breaking even selling 80 out of 100 items. Regardless of the accounting treatment, the cash has left the business to make the full 100 items and that season’s fixed costs are still outgoing. From a “cash in your bank account view” or operating cash flow point of view, that can be a real challenge, especially for a very small business with a narrow product set.
Sad to see the short-sleeve shirt being discontinued – one of the products I’d very much like but also very much want to lose more weight first or else I’d never get around to wearing it.
Also very interesting re the idea behind it. For a totally different product with the regularity of sales on Valve I rarely buy video games full price anymore. It’s certainly infuriating buying something and not using it or barely doing so and seeing it on sale shortly after, and with games you don’t even have to worry about stock running out! I’ve definitely had some things I hoped from Drake’s would end up in the archive sale but fully sold out but until I get promoted Drake’s full price has now gone from an occasional treat to never except on sale.
A man after my own heart–enthusiastic for both clothing and gaming! Cheers to discipline and delayed gratification, our most reliable tools for indulging our costly passions.
Am also quite sad to see the short-sleeved shirt go. It looks so cool on both Simon and Agent 47 in Sapienza.
Hi Simon,
It might be appropriate to mention it here, but I would heartily welcome new colours in the finest crew neck. They are a superb offering (I have 3) and the cut of the product is flattering to most body shapes (I’m a little tubby and can find wearing knitwear a little challenging sometimes). Thanks to you and the team for making such things available !
No problem Joe, lovely to hear how much you like it. Out of interest, what colour would you like the most?
I’d love one in the cream from the Dartmouth/Finest Polo or the brown from the Finest Polo. Or something in the ballpark of either of those depending on what yarn is available in that particular material.
Ok noted, thanks Ben
Hello! If you have anything left, we would love to collect it for Pop Up Crisis in December. We can collect and store items at the Crisis warehouse. Another very different type of sale. Thank you all in advance.
Hey Anda,
Absolutely, will do, another great way for nothing to go to waste.
Thanks
Good Morning Simon,
Hope all well?
I note in the article that only discontinued products will be listed on sale.
So, is the Friday polo to be discontinued or will there still be a version available? If so, how will it differ – colours etc etc?
Many thanks in advance.
It’s only the old button-down version of the Friday Polo that’s in the sale Yash. We haven’t sold that for a while – it’s already been replaced with a non-button-down version
Hi Simon,
Thanks for the clarification.
Yash
Will the shorts be restocked this year? If so what colours?
Yes they will. All details in our shop update piece in February
I liked the idea of the shorts a lot but they were too slim in the leg for me and I kept ripping the seams apart when I moved. (I lift weights and have bigger thighs, but I’m not a bodybuilder or anything like.) Something to consider for a restock might be bigger seat and thigh on the larger sizes, which could then be taken in at the waist if needed.
Noted, thanks David
Hi David, I share your pain with my thighs and calves but have found great enjoy in Steve Calder’s S005 shorts and T005 trousers at Informale. Good luck!
I hope the green version was in the sale due to the extreme size issue rather than the color being discontinued. Or maybe the number of pleats will change. But i have found the green the most worn version for me. And i would love a pair in each green, khaki, and navy to leave in my overseas residence instead of constantly carrying with me in luggage.
Looking forward to the February piece.
I picked up the suede bomber in navy towards the end of summer and could hardly love it more. Receives so many compliments. Would recommend it in this sale to anyone who’s been considering. From a menswear nerd’s pov, I’m quite pleased to see it being discontinued (for now, at least): only adds to what already feels like a special item!
Ha! Nice point Joe
No brand could survive on margins of just 20%. High Street retail margins are typically around 80 to 85% – not just the big names as you say but niche brands too . My neighbour recently bought a classic Polo Ralph Lauren shirt in Fenwick’s sale. It was reduced by 75% from £169 to just £42.
Drake’s margins must be massive as they charge around 50 to 100% more than other retailers who buy from the same manufacturer. A typical example that featured on PS is the lambswool shawl cardigan (£475) which retails for around £230 to £295 in other shops. Cording’s originally charged £259 but the sale price is now £229. That would suggest that Drake’s margins can be over 90%!!
Even if you can afford to pay full price, you can still save lots of money by doing a bit of research and shopping around.
That’s just not true Kent. You’re looking at the cost of manufacturing and not at any of the other costs – staff, design, shops and all the other annoying things (like the fact delivery costs have essentially doubled since Covid, but everyone has to build that into the price).
We talked about this in depth before on this article, and a reader also pointed out that for many companies, their numbers are public and so you can see the breakdown of costs. He did this effectively with Cucinelli, including the margins made from sales. I suggest having a look there rather than repeating those arguments here.
However, it’s worth picking up the point about manufacturers, because that is very misleading. Whether you think Drake’s prices are worth it or not, it is always misleading to assume that one manufacturer produces the same product for everybody. The same Scottish mill can produce hugely varying products, in the yarn, the style of the weave, the density of the weave, the finishing, the cut, the design, the hardware.
Some brands do make very few changes to a factory’s standard product, but others change it entirely. If you like the standard one, that’s great, but you can never make the assumption that they are the same.
Good piece, Simon.
I love the PS green knitted waistcoat and was hoping to pick up another in your sale, alas none available. Are you discontinuing this item? It is a superb refinement to the wardrobe, and I’d like another!
Regards,
joe
It is being discontinued Joe, yes, sorry
That’s really unfortunate, I was considering getting them just a few days ago and now they’re both gone in medium size.
I’ve started wearing sleeveless cardigans with sport coats but I found that many offered by traditional Scottish brands are too long (William Lockie’s version is around 5cm longer than yours in the same chest size). Some stores like The Armoury and Amide Hamelin offer them in shorter lengths, but on the flip side they’re much too short for my trousers’ rise. I guess my search continues.
With a certain idea of brevity :
Fair enough.
Very enthusiastic about pre-orders on highly anticipated pieces though.
Have a nice week-end
Dear Simon. Out of curiosity, has the growth of your business meant you’ve been able to order more stock generally? For instance, there was a time when a new release would be sold out on the same day. Whereas now there tends to be pretty good availability and even items which sell out like the denim shirts come back fairly quickly.
Certainly it’s nice to have the chance to reflect longer on whether something is right rather than having to pile in instantly.
As a general observation, it seems you’ve been responsive to feedback about stocking items in the very large or very small sizes, when it would probably be better for you financially to stick to more mainstream sizing, so having a sale to move these seems perfectly reasonable and doesn’t devalue the brand.
Thanks Alexander, that’s nice to know.
Yes, being a little bigger has meant we’re able to keep things in stock longer – it actually means there is more of that sunk cost in stock that sits there most of the time, but that’s only a hit you take once. Having the sale once a year will definitely make it easier to maintain that stock level and spread sizes a little more.
It is a difficult thing to get right. I am very much put off by brands that offer regular sales for the reasons you have highlighted. It see that it makes sense to help shift old stock.
In my experience the best discount offerings come in loyalty schemes, if you are going to offer discounts it seems fair to reward your loyal customs – Luca Faloni are a good example of this.
Interesting point Henry. I guess the only downside of that is that you don’t have the angle of letting less well-off people access the product. But that matters less the cheaper the product is.
We have written about the sale but it’s deliberately not public on the shop site, so I guess to an extent you need to be a loyal reader to know about it. Certainly given that half the things have gone already.
Hi Simon,
Are returns accepted on sale items?
Yes
I think this is one if the things that Europeans do much better than Americans. In the States, it is the norm that items on sale are FINAL i.e. no returns.
In my opinion, this is not good business practice. From a customers point of view, if I want to buy/try an item, and the store happens to have discounted it/put it on sale, I get penalised for ordering it. If it doesn’t fit or is unsuitable for whatever reason, I cannot return it. This creates a feeling of resentment towards the store/brand (perhaps a restocking fee could be a middle ground). Obviously, I’m referring to online sales. Or in old money, “Distance Selling”. I can remember when companies offered much better service when Distance Selling. As a customer, you felt secure in the knowledge that the seller was confident in their product and wanted you to ‘Try, before you buy’, so to speak.
I’ve found many online stores now consider their customers an inconvenience (not referring to P.S.) and have found I’m now less inclined to order online having had a burst of it for a some years.
I also now value a sales assistants help and advice greatly over my own opinion in my bedroom mirror.
Good to hear, you should do.
The issue with sales and returns is usually that the items are only in a sale for a limited time – say a week or two – and so a customer can easily buy something and then return it after the sale has ended, so the brand has no opportunity to resell it in the sale. Unlike returns of full-priced items.
That doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s often the reasoning. Because the returned item cannot be sold to anyone else at that point, and has to be got rid of in some other way.
LOgged onto the sale an hour after the email and everything is sold out in medium sadly….
The green cardigan isn’t, and neither is the navy bomber.
Bear in mind that for some of these items (donegal, trench, short) there were only ever one or two left – it’s about giving homes to those odd pieces that are left over.
Hi Simon,
Very interesting article that to some extent describes the challenges faced by a smaller brand. I think the issues for a retailer (as opposed to a brand that manages the whole supply chain) are even more acute especially where they have a physical presence as well. I really don’t know how they do it and a suspect for reasons of passion and independence, not a way to get rich.
Bigger brands have significant economies of scale, but also face challenges. I’m not one to jump on the bandwagon of trashing them as they employ a lot of people. I do think a sale price is factored into their business model, especially where one sees the x% across the board reductions.
What both have in common is some lines simply don’t sell well and as you mention the outlier sizes are usually what is found on the racks.
To finish, we mustn’t forget the customer As you mention sales do provide an entry level to more expensive brands. On the other hand what people generally buy in sales (especially clothing) is discretionary spend so it’s not a saving more avoided cost.
And don’t get me started on the laughably named ‘archive sale’.
All the best and have good weekend
Looking forward to the January 2026 sale 😄
The article triggered a question that with brands being sold by other vendors, do they get a say in what products are included in sales (and at what discount)?
For example, on a Mr Porter sale, would brands like A&S or Drakes choose what products can be discounted (even if the same product continues to be sold at full price via their own respective stores / sites)?
So, it varies considerably with the brand and with the wholesaler (like Mr Porter). Some brands have a lot of power – you won’t see Loro Piana go on sale on Mr Porter for instance. But others have none, usually smaller brands. I know some that have had to leave wholesalers like Mr Porter because the sales hurt their reputation too much.
There are other weird wrinkles to this as well. For example, in France the times you can go on sale are controlled by legislation I’m told. But in most places they are not – so I know French brands that have an issue with somewhere like Mr Porter going on sale before they are able to
One thing I’d say is that for anyone who’s remotely interested in a suede bomber, I really thought the PS version was amazing when I tried it on in the pop-up!
Also, whilst I wouldn’t want anyone running a business to have to cut prices just to start to turn a profit, the idea of an end of the line sale does feel different (and prevents waste). It also potentially gives a chance for some people to access the products at a slightly more accessible price point.
Hopefully it’s win / win for you and the customers Simon.
Final point – great to have something to look forward to in January as well!
Ditto, I fully agree
Dreaming of warmer weather, I picked up a couple of the short-sleeved shirts. Likely to be worn with Informale linen trousers and beaten-up LHS’s (LHSes?), all while sipping a cold beer in a beach bar. Or, at least, one can hope…
GOOD LUCK!!!!!!
This was a very interesting breakdown of sales. I used to work for one of the large Italian luxury brands. I learned how margin applied to the stock and how much outlet sales played a part in the finances. The company also transitioned from true sample sales to selling everything left over from a season to a company that hosts “sample sales” that are basically just clearinghouse sales.
When I started, employees were able to go to sale that was just for employees once or twice a year. The discounts were massive (95% wasn’t uncommon). Never having seen the math behind those sales, I gathered they generally fell into what you defined as making what you can off of those last 20 sweaters. Sample pieces were the obvious exception, as they were generally written off from the start and were just extra money for the company whatever the price. Paying 5% of msrp might sound like a devaluation of the brand, but we always saw it as a thank you perk to the company’s employees while giving the brand more visual presence on the streets. Now, as I said the company transitioned to a clearinghouse which did two things, it set the company up for consumers who would only buy at the “sample sale”, and it left the employees with one fewer perk (or at least one that wasn’t as nice). To be honest, the matrix with all of the margins got so complicated, and changed so often, I still do not know what the value of the products actually stands. That said, I doubt $1200 for a basic cashmere sweater that there seemed to be endless stock of, had anything less than an 80% margin, at one point I had a few pieces calculated at around 90% margin.
Outlets, however, are a more interesting topic. I know many brands that started outlets with the intent of never making MFO (made for outlet) lines; but all of those brands now do. It turns out that even with the company I worked for, the revenue is massive. Some years the outlets made more money than the retail locations. Furthermore, as everyone else was doing it, it didn’t seem to devalue the brand in the eyes of most consumers. Brunello Cucinelli (not the brand I worked for) has many outlets and their retail business seems to be in quite rude health for example. It would be a fun article to read, and I assume research, about the quality and value of MFO products, it isn’t as binary as most people think.
One last point I want to touch on, and something that I think people who care about clothes should know, is how brands maintain “brand integrity”. It is a rarely talked about fact that luxury brands will (literally) burn old stock to maintain the image of exclusivity. They get to write off the burned items as lost potential revenue and feel that it keeps their most loyal clients feeling exclusive; that they will never have to walk down a street and see someone less affluent wearing the same brand. I find the practice appalling, not only due to the intentional furthering of class seperation, but as to the disrespect it cast on the craftsman that made the fabrics and pieces.
Interesting Brian, thank you. Yes the point about burning stock always sits particularly badly with anyone that cares about product. And I believe I saw in the news that the EU or at least France was banning the practice
Hmm, just trying to apply these thoughts to Private White. They currently have over 300 products in the sale between 25-70% off. I like a lot of their products but are they just stocking too much or are they over priced to start with?
I agree. I have bought 3 jackets from Private White and always got them at least 50% off. Those three are pretty standard in a standard size (3).
You would have to define what overpriced means to you. Do you feel PS brand coats are overpriced? Because they are made in the same factory by same people for roughly similar cost. Quality of make seems to be high, do you like the designs, do you care that they are made in Manchester instead of Portugal or Italy or Asia? You have to remember that they aren’t just a brand but also a factory that needs to keep producing to keep the lights on and workers busy. One would guess they would prefer not to sell half of their stock on discounted price and this is not the vision they had for the brand but this is the current reality.
Just to say m, the costs aren’t the same just because they’re made in the same factory. Quite a bit can vary
10/10 article.
As someone who has been eying the brown suede bomber for a while now, thank you! Couldn’t pay the full price for it because it wasn’t a need for me. Going to wear it a lot in spring.
Managed to pick the linen harrington in navy as well on marrkt as well with a 40% discount.
Have a good weekend Simon!
Nice to hear Edwin, one goal of the sale achieved in that case
Always interesting with these discussions “behind the scene” of retail; what drives cost, and how messy it can be if you fail to move a large portion of your stock. Though I mostly agree with everything you write, I think an additional point to consider when it comes to retail chains running these large, frequent discounts, is that a lot of what you’re paying for obviously isn’t the quality of the clothes, or even the marketing – it’s the convenience. If you go to a RL store and buy a £100 polo shirt, only a small portion of that money is the cost of the shirt. But in addition to profits and marketing and overhead, a pretty big chunk likely goes to the fact that RL has a lot of stores. You can go there and try on the shirt, see how the color looks in real life, see which size is best for you – and if they don’t have your size, they can usually order it within a few days.
Compare that to a store like PS, where the cost of the garment is a much higher portion of the price we pay, but where the restock can take months, your size may sell out within hours, and your chance to try something on is restricted to popups in a couple of cities, and sometimes a collaboration with a store in London. I clearly prefer the PS value offering (as can be seen from the many PS items in my wardrobe), but I think that when you factor in convenience in a company value offering, it makes a bit more sense how they can discount merchandise to heavily.
A sad example of a brand stuck in the permanent sales (now that sounds like the name of a website…) is Berg&Berg. As they’ve raised their prices, the sales have gotten more frequent and longer – their summer sale seems to go from June to August now, and I don’t even consider buying anything unless it’s marked down at least 40%. Alas, as their prices have gone up by extreme amounts (feels like some things almost doubled in a few years), even the 50% discounts feel insufficient. To me, they started out as a great entry-level menswear brand, something I’d recommend to friends wanting to up their clothing game a notch, and a pretty good source of basics like jeans and polo shirts. Now they’re closing in on Rubato/PS level prices with little of the design and quality to back it up.
Same can be said of Drakes unfortunately. Each year another 10-20% added onto everything and core basics like their OCBD shirts, ties and Shetlands etc become ridiculously overpriced. I don’t know of anyone who buys Drakes at retail anymore. Everyone waits for the twice/year archive sale when deep discounts are applied. But of course when you apply 20% price increase each year then the 75% off in the sale eventually only gets you back to what the retail price should be to begin with / was two years ago, rather than any “bargain”. I’ve always been a huge fan of the brand from the beginning but I absolutely hate the direction they’ve taken it in recent years. Someone on styleforum did some research on the publicly available financials and surmised they barely make any profit from what they are doing now. I really don’t know who they are trying to target anymore with luxury-priced “dad core” “norm core” “book core” whatever you want to call basic British classic menswear these days…!
Simon ,
Can I make an ask for an article on ties? It seems quite a while since the last one. I still go back and read the capsule one. Also I still wear ties to work
Thanks
Sure Jon – anything in particular?
There was recently some strong feedback from readers regarding ties and button down shirts. If you were to produce a further article on ties, this would be interesting to explore. Many thanks.
Good point Alexander
Well If you could touch on ties in non work settings. Plus any new or recent brands that have come along that have caught your eye maybe? Thanks again
No worries Jon
Hi Simon,
great article and helpful to know how PS will handle sales in the future.
One interesting way some companies handle their sales is to sell them in a country, where the brand is not or little known, so reputation loss is unlikely.
I profited a lot from this in the past when I was able to buy, always’ last year’s stock, PS compatible Scottish and English manufacturers not know in Austria at around 70 percent discount when they never had such discounts in the UK.
The most transparent company revealing the internal costs of their products is ASKET.
Each product has a full cost breakdown. For example, an Oxford Shirt sold by ASKET for EUR 120 costs ASKET EUR 33 in landed costs (EUR 12 in fabric and milling, EUR 15 in manufacturing, EUR 5 in trims and packaging and EUR 1 for transport).
Now that is a best-practice-example of transparency.
Do they list any of the other costs Markus? Or just what the product itself cost?
No they do not (the other costs must be in the difference between EUR 33 and EUR 120). But, at least for me, the production costs are the most interesting. For ASKET Not listing the other costs might actually a disadvantage because most readers probably think the difference between EUR 33 and EUR 120 is quite large and do not think of the other costs.
Yes, true.
Hey Simon, I think PS will not suffer from any loss of quality or perception in the clothing due to this small sale. We are also living in interesting times, so people who buy well, once are also thinking harder on what the purchase will be. As a side note I often buy things on sale at Private White, it’s more opportunistic now and then, and usually means I buy a new season item full price and something 30-40% off. More planned and timed purchases, the quality again isn’t impacted.
A couple of people have mentioned preorders, I’d definitely partake in this for the Navy Donegal, as well as the knitwear, by the time I wake to the email that they’ve launched in Australia the XL or more specifically the XXL has sold out and I have little to no chance of getting to a pop up. Probably some merit in pre orders with gents who know their size. Have you ever considered taking deposits and then balance on full when the orders are ready to be launched and dispatched? That’s very successful here for boutique tailors and retailers. Keep up the fine work.
Hey Rhys,
Yes you’re right, it is very useful for people in those bigger or smaller sizes.
Yes we usually take deposits and then full payment for bigger things like the coats. It does create a surprising number of problems though – people not paying the second half, or asking to change the colour they ordered when they pay the second half, even though we’ve basically bought the first colour for them already!
Great article and a great initiative. I like articles where you learn something new.
Hi Simon – Do you plan to stock the Dartmoor in charcoal this year? I own it in navy and grey, and absolutely love both. I’m debating whether to buy it from Thom Sweeney (the one you wore at the NYC pop up) but would wait for the Dartmoor if it’s planned for this year.
Also, will you be offering more colors in the cashmere crewneck this year? I have the navy and grey and wear them constantly.
Thank you!
There are no plans for charcoal in it, no. Bear in mind the Sweeney one is different – not as luxurious in make and with a different collar.
Yes, there will be more colours in the cashmere crewneck definitely
Simon that is a nice idea to make some sales although there is something that really irritates me and does not make much sense to me. The coats made by private white are never on sale by private white. How can this be, when almost every other piece they make goes on 50% sale at the end of a season ? Are the fabric or production costs so different from their other stuff offer? Are the other products inferior in quality to your collaboration pieces with them ?
It is our agreement that they cannot go on sale as ours are not. The materials are often different, and things like the hardware, linings, buttons etc are too. And design is a big factor
Sad to see the suede bomber being discontinued. I’ve got both colours, and a sample of yours in camel. Was hoping for a summer variant this year – something in wool / silk / linen. Looking forward to the shop update in Feb!
Well thought out and well-executed. I think you touch on all the points and have managed to successfully walk that difficult line re: size of discount offered.
Lovely to hear, cheers CJ
Great post Simon – brands certainly need to be very careful about their discounting strategy lest is backfire on them.
Drakes does it well with occasional and quite limited “archive” sales. And I’m a huge fan of The Real McCoy’s who, despite not having their own distribution outside of Japan, seem to have managed to ensure they are never discounted.
PWVC is a good example of a brand which has gone too far the other way, destroying my perception of their value – everything is reliability available at a steep discount if you wait a few months.
Great articles thanks Simon.
Speaking for myself, I do tend to purchase more ‘unique’ or ‘must-have’ items at full price when I can but do so but admit that certain very expensive items (think the price of a tailored odd jacket from Brioni, Kiton or Cesare Attolini) I so far always only get on sale or from specialized websites that sell proper old stock for quite a bit cheaper (I don’t mind buying things that are several seasons old as I find that classic menswear is just that, it never goes out of fashion). This reflects my budget limitations but also that I am trying to build an A grade RTW wardrobe at lightning speed (meaning that if I wasn’t I could probably afford to buy more of the very expensive items at full price).
I think the other element is that sales always make things very tempting as you perceive that you are ‘saving’ X amount of money by purchasing the garment now, even if it isn’t your first choice of garment or one that you wouldn’t buy at full price even if you could afford it (i.e. you don’t see yourself wearing it often enough to justify the outlay at the retail price).
Hi Simon – I was waiting for a restock of Brown Suede Bomber in size 4. Now that it is going to be discontinued I am debating if I should get a size 5 while you have it. I have similar measurements as yours and am a 4 on PS/PWVC items (like the donegal coat) and a Large for PS Rugby and Oxfords. Would 5 be too oversized or within passable range where it doesn’t stand out as a look?
I think it probably would be, yes unfortunately. They do come up a little big, hence the fact I can wear a small or medium (see images on the shop page)
Well, I finally bought the suede bomber after eyeing it for a couple of years. The reduced price made it a lot easier. (I also found a suede jacket at a thrift shop in Florence over the summer, which was a nice low-cost way to see if I even liked suede jackets. Alas, one of the sleeves is too short.) The lower price, along with the signal that it was being discontinued, made me stop putting it off.
I’m glad that you’ve been able to keep more stock. It used to be that even if I was on the waiting list for an item, by the time I woke up at GMT-8 and saw the email, it had already sold out. That was pretty frustrating. More recently I’ve been able to just go and order something whenever the time was right for me.
One issue with the preorders is that you haven’t allowed exchange for a different size. That makes it a much riskier proposition to buy. Understandable, but another reason why stocking more is welcome. If an occasional sale helps you to do that, great.
Permanent Style has actually helped me get out of the mindset of only buying on sale, which is how I was raised. It’s far better to pay full price for the right thing than discounted for something that isn’t quite right, but that takes some mental adjustment if it’s not how you were brought up. So I’m grateful for that. I don’t suppose the very circumscribed sale that you’re doing will diminish this edifying effect.
Thanks David
Hello Simon, long time reader but first time commentator. Your website has been a great catalyst to refining my wardrobe for life post 40’s (if only I’d learnt some of the lessons earlier…). In the early days of reading and refining my wardrobe I struggled to balance the adtl cost of such items with my other ‘passion’ – financial independence (aka FIRE in the online blogs etc) and would seek out sales, sign-up discounts etc. so understanding the detail behind this is useful. Over time, and with a better understanding of the various inputs, the purchase of better quality garments with the greater upfront cost is becoming easier to justify. Though I rarely purchase PWVC at full price as others mention.
This article seems a great opportunity to harness the experience of your fellow readers to help with a challenge I’m facing – returning items purchased from the EU, imported to the UK and reclaiming the VAT paid. I recently purchased a jacket from Berg & Berg, which though great, was too short in the sleeves. On trying to work out how to reclaim the VAT I’ve become completely baffled – is anyone able to provide guidance?
Its very difficult to reclaim. And you will lose some on admin fees. I have experienced this a couple of times and ended up selling some items on eBay as it was much quicker and more convenient. I have since have stopped buying from the EU altogether unless the items are under the EUR 150 threshold.
Appreciate the reply Zohair, it does point to that being the outcome unfortunately.
As someone with no experience of navigating this type of thing (and was completely overwhelmed when trying to look into it) I gave up and just used dutyrefunds.co.uk when I made a return (also berg&berg in this case).
They do take a 15% cut but I figured much better to get 85% back than either nothing or wasting too much time trying to figure everything out.
Thanks Isaac, I’d not come across that website – but will use it to save time and sanity. Thanks!
Thanks Simon, I find the ‘politics’ of sales exciting and so this particular musing of yours was a fascinating one. Long ago I worked at a large family-owned luxury multi-brand retail brick & mortar place.
One of the received pieces of wisdom in the industry about sample sales at the time was to ensure that they didn’t align with standard pay dates (so they were often held on the 3rd week of a month) and to plonk them in a warehouse in East London / Townhall in Kensiginton on a weekday afternoon to ensure in no uncertain terms ‘it keeps the riff-raff out’. In practice, I always found this a rather short-sighted approach given that we rarely see new customers at these sales, thus denying the benefit of an entry point for new customers and instead would mostly see some of our wealthiest ‘clients rock up to fill their baskets on stuff they’d seen in the shop. On one occasion half the squad of a well-known West London football side rocked up to clear out every pair of luxury trainers left.
Ha! Great first-hand account, thanks Joshua
I completely agree with the sentiment of making great pieces available to people that can’t afford to buy at full price. I probably have a seven or eight pieces of clothing/footwear that I either purchased on sale or as a one off when I unexpectedly came into a small amount of money. They are the items I value most, they will last me most of my life and be worn and looked after with care. I lost a very close relative when I was young and she told me once that if you ever come into a little bit of money and you have no bills to pay, treat yourself to something you would never usually be able to buy. Each piece of I own where this was the case holds great sentimental value. I think the PS approach to sales is in keeping with what a sale should be, opening up access to a wider range of customers.
On a side note, as I am saving for a PS Donegal, please don’t tell me that last navy speckled one that sold in the sale was a size 2!
Thank you Pickford, and don’t worry it wasn’t!
I managed to pick one up in the Private White sale over the weekend, Simon. Got there just in the nick of time as the size 2 has now sold out. Looking forward to seeing it in person when it arrives!
The price charged has little bearing on the value I derive as a buyer. When I think about on different levels then I see value as significantly more complex and deeper than a price tag.
Price is almost the last thing I look once I am mindful of 12 other factors (and even then its a function of average cost per wear). Consequently, for me the price (by the retailer) and value derived (by the buyer) are not interchangeable words.
Hi Mr. Baker,
I would be interested to know what are the 11 other factors you are considering when buying a piece over the price. I’m not saying the price comes up first for me, but my salary and family situation don’t allow me to put the price number 12. Glad for you however!
tu Simon sei un fenomeno , io ti ammiro tantissimo , …. hai avuto un successo incredibile con una banda di “segaioli mentali ” che di abbigliamento capiscono quello che capiscono , e tu li cucini come meglio non si può , i miei complimenti più sinceri
Hi Simon,
Are you likely to have the light grey donegal restocked? I can’t remember if you mentioned this previously.
Cheers
We should do Tom, yes. We will also be doing a pre-order on them, in case you want to make sure you get one this year
‘Today a ‘sample sale’ can mean just a normal sale of entirely normal stock. Except maybe it’s sort-of-hidden somewhere, like in a different building.’ Looking at you Drake’s…
Hey Simon – from whizzing through the comments here, I presume the donegal and english tweed overcoat (in any colour, new or old) won’t be re-stocked until later in the year?
The grey will actually have a restock before then, but there will also be a pre-order for every colour (old and new) – details on that coming at the end of the week
Thanks very much for getting back to me – looking forward to hearing more about it.
I was always interested in definition of “profit”. Is it something you can use to treat yourself like a bonus? Or whatever is left after expenses?
You know, especially recently when almost daily you read about greedflation, record profits while raising prices…
There are different accounting definitions, but usually what it means is, the money left over after you’ve paid all costs, including staff. What is done with that money is then up to the owners – it could be a bonus, or it could be reinvested into the company
I really enjoy the PS designs, both the product themselves and your articles on the development. Could adding a GMTO-like process on out of stock items be an option, such as Skoak seems to be focusing on? I would imagine that PW for instance wouldn’t mind making a new batch of donegals in a particular fabric and sizes if, say, there were 20 already preordered. Just a thought.
Thanks Erik. We could look at that in the future, yes. The issue is mostly that products vary so much in terms of the minimums of the maker and of the cloth involved. Shoes are often easier in that respect.
For example, Umbria Verde or our T-shirt maker would require 150+ units to start production, so that doesn’t really work. Private White can do small batches, but only if they have the cloth in stock because they’re already using it to make something else. The minimum from a mill if they wanted to order the cloth would often by 100m or so, so that’s 40-50 pieces minimum.
The only reason we can offer these Donegals in the old colours is because last year we put up the money to just buy 100m of each, to offer the cloth itself to readers.
Hope that helps shed some light on the process!
Yeossal was doing gmto. As in mto price, but if until deadline 10 people order, you get 10% off, 20 order and 20% off, etc… and if 10 didn’t order until deadline, everyone gets a refund or you can keep the order for full mto price.