Bespoke Anto shirt from La La Land – tucked and untucked
In the continuing vein of exploring sports shirts - casual, vintage-styled, often rayon or silk - I chatted a couple of months ago to my friend Jack Sepetjian, who runs Anto shirts in LA.
I first got to know Jack when he spoke at our Shirtmakers Symposium during Pitti, in 2018. Jack makes for many celebrities in Los Angeles, but also does a lot of film work. A large portion of his shirts are made for costume directors on films like Casino, Ocean’s Eleven or La La Land.
It was the latter that sparked my interest recently. I was rewatching the film and noted Ryan Gosling’s sports shirt in it - cream, what looked like silk, worn tucked and untucked, with trousers and with a suit. It looked like an interesting take.
I thought Anto might have made the shirts for that film, and it turned out they had. I then asked Jack to make me one in the same model. I took my own measurements and the result turned out well - perhaps helped by the fact that Jack and I had met in person previously.
The shirt is interesting to cover as a product, as a review. But it’s also a good excuse to talk again about tucking and untucking, with a jacket and without, given that’s how the shirt was styled.
I’ve deliberately worn the shirt here in all those different permutations, to enable some discussion.
The shirt itself is made in an unusual ribbed silk, with an almost crepe-like texture. But it is also densely woven, which means it holds its shape well - retaining a clean, smarter look when untucked.
The latter, I’m increasingly realising, is a key reason silk or rayon are good for this style of shirt. They will always drape better than linen or cotton, and even if they have to have a silkier look as a result, it doesn’t have to be the satin finish people most commonly associate with silk: it can be more matte, and more textured, as here or with the rayon covered previously.
The way of wearing the shirt above is how I would imagine most PS readers will prefer it: tucked in, with a jacket over the top.
It’s certainly the easiest way to wear it, as the unusual aspects of the shirt are partly hidden. And it means the shirt adds a nice, subtle edge to the outfit, rather than being the focus: you might expect a white or ecru linen, but what you get is a slightly floppy-collar silk. It’s elegant and unexpected.
I have struggled with the size of that collar, which was bigger than I anticipated (9cm). However, its shape is nice under a jacket like this, curling around the lapel before tucking neatly underneath it.
And, when the jacket is removed, the light fusing takes on a little of that tucked-under shape, giving the collar a little roll and pointing it downwards. Both make the length of the collar less obvious.
Still, if I were ever to have another shirt like this made by Anto, I would take a centimetre off the length. I’d be more at ease wearing it on its own.
Which is what I’ve shown in the second outfit iteration, above.
You can see the size of the collar in this iteration - but with that roll, in an outfit that is clearly a little more dressy and perhaps even evening-y, I think it works.
I always, always fold back my shirt sleeves when I’m not wearing a jacket; I feel physically weird if I don’t, and I do it in exactly the way I watched my Dad do it years ago.
But there is also a case to be made that it’s flattering. Certainly, it helps this shirt look a little more relaxed.
Now untucked.
Let’s get the menswear rules out of the way first. Yes, it shortens the legs; less obviously, it narrows the shoulders (relatively); it also looks less neat, more messy, and you could say less elegant.
But as with all the rules (which we’ve covered extensively here) the point is to respect these traditions, understand the benefits that mean they’ve been passed down, and then decide whether you are about other things more.
In this case, you might prioritise the fact that an untucked shirt looks more relaxed; you might not place much importance on how physically flattering a shirt is; or you might just prefer the style - and that’s always the most important.
Another option, in order to look more relaxed still, is to wear a white vest or T-shirt underneath the shirt. In this case I’ve gone with a white T-shirt, because that’s what Gosling wears in the film.
I think this is actually my preferred option with the shirt untucked. Perhaps because the collar is de-emphasised, and perhaps because I can still unbutton the shirt as far as I want, but don’t add chest hair to everything else already going on around the neck.
This feels like it might be a nice option for evening drinks somewhere, with friends who are unlikely to be wearing tailored trousers, let alone a jacket.
Last of all, the shirt untucked with a jacket.
I can see how some people are drawn to options like this, as part of a desire to casualise the suit. But personally I don’t think it succeeds, and looks a little sloppy.
Untucking under a jacket is an easy thing to do, but more subtle things are actually more effective, such as changing the colour, material or collar of the shirt.
If you want to wear a shirt untucked, I’d wear something more casual over the top, such as an overshirt or knit. But as ever, let me know what you all think below.
We will cover Anto, the company, its history and clientele, in a separate article.
Anto shirts start at $375, but any fine materials or even checks are more expensive, from $425. A silk shirt like mine is $525.
They regularly do remote orders, as mine was, with clients taking their own measurements and fittings over video if required. Delivery time is usually eight weeks.
Other clothes shown: jacket from Brioni, linen trousers from Edward Sexton, Sagan Grand loafer from Baudoin & Lange
I never really understand why people do the untucked shirt with jacket in this day and age. It looks like you are wearing a label on your head saying “look, I’m such a rebel! I wear my shirt untucked!”
This maybe worked a few decades ago when everyone wore tailoring, but today looks ridiculous because there’s no social convention forcing you to wear a jacket in the first place – convention to which you would “subtly” rebel by untucking the shirt. In fact, nowadays you are more of a rebel if you wear a jacket at all, outside of very specific places (e.g. courtrooms, weddings, funerals).
I particularly don’t understand it because it’s not hard to do better. If you don’t want to wear tucked shirts in order to appear more relaxed, yet for some reason (since it’s a choice now) still want to wear a jacket, just wear a knitted polo. That way you can safely untuck, not look business-like, and still retain the flattering leg length.
Completely agree
Believe I understand your point of view. It seems men’s fashion today is a race to getaway from formality. Wearing a tailored jacket with an untucked rayon shirt is funny.
shirt untucked under a jacket reminds me of what we sometimes did after school, back in the day – the old blazer and white school shirt untucked when out of the teachers’ watchful eyes! Teenage rebels are fair enough, but not for the grown man! Also a good point in your summer holiday article recently Simon about wearing a long sleeve top and shorts, or short sleeve top and trousers – to avoid the boy look. Good tip
Agree that there is nothing remotely rebellious given the athleisure trend that predominates. You even have brands like UntuckIt cropping up to cater to this trend. And aesthetically speaking, it is not flattering and looks juvenile. Reminds me of boys rebelling against having to wear a uniform at school.
The one exception I make is in the resort setting. So for instance, I might wear a Hawaiian shirt over linen trousers when going for a stroll at a beach resort. In that situation, untucking the shirt does not look out of place and has the benefit of keeping the heat away and allowing air ventilation. But otherwise, I like to keep mine tucked in.
This is a beautiful shirt. It looks quite smart for a sports shirt. Is there any lustre at all to the fabric? It looks quite matte.
I’m wondering how cool/breathable this is compared to cotton or linen. Have you worn it in very hot weather?
No, not much shine to it, which is perfect.
It wouldn’t be that cool in very hot weather. Obviously more than any jacket, but linen would always be better in that regard
Thanks, that’s helpful. Do you find much difference in coolness between silk and rayon?
It’s hard to say – I haven’t tried enough of either, and of course there’s a lot of variation in the weight and weave of the material, aside from just the raw material
Hi Simon, looks good. How does silk handle wrinkling? I’ve wanted a silk evening shirt for a while now, but I feel it could maybe be too effeminate, even if luxurious at the same time. Any thoughts on silk even shirts for under a jacket?
It varies with the silk, but generally it’s better for wrinkling than most other materials. Certainly this one is
For silk evening shirts, have a look at the piece last year on Cocktail Attire
Simon,
Cool shirt. Did you consider having a second breast pocket? Two pockets can be distinguishing…but in a good way?
I think two looks a bit more like workwear, less smart or luxury
How can you describe a second pocket as “less luxury”? does that presuppose that one pocket is luxury in some way?
Am I missing something here?
As with other commenters I am not a fan of the untucked under a jacket look, but think it’s OK untucked without, although I would not wear the undershirt and do the buttons up a little.
Yes, probably. Double pockets are more often seen on work shirts, so have more of that association.
Separately, of course, there’s the general menswear principle that cleaner designs without any interruption are smarter. As with broguing on a shoe, and why most smart dress shirts have no pocket at all.
Thanks Simon. It was the word “luxury” that I couldn’t understand. I of course know that one pocket is less formal than no pocket, and two would be even less so, but I am not sure what links this to luxury.
Was it the wrong choice of word perhaps? Would “formal” have been more appropriate?
Thanks
Yes, perhaps. With this shirt in particular I guess it already has luxurious look because of the silk. And adding an extra pocket would take away some of that by making it looks less formal, if that makes sense
I think it doesn’t look too bad untucked under the jacket in your pic, but I think that’s because you’re still and one side is curved round with your hand in the pocket. I definitely don’t think it’d look good in motion.
The fabric looks really, really nice.
Yea I think you’re right – it’s better when swept back
Wearing floppy collared shirts, whether rayon pieces like this or knitted Smedley polos, has become my favourite pairing for tailored jackets to achieve a ‘leisure’ rather than ‘business’ look. Would be interested in other peoples’ tactics on this point.
I think that’s a great point Peter, it’s really nice. I did it with some one-piece collars in the summer as well, and might try it with some brushed cottons in winter too
I think a similar effect can be achieved with button downs under a jacket and I prefer the roll that can be achieved in that way.
True, and that’s much easier when the jacket isn’t worn as well. A different style too of course
What a beautiful and luxurious piece, reminds me I need to watch La La Land. Seems practically the most versatile way too cut a shirt too, very interesting (and very jealous, can’t see myself ever spending quite that on a shirt, perhaps a search for alternatives)
I’ve never really liked untucked shirts under a jacket, as comfortable as it may feel. Agree with you on liking all the other ways though
For a shirt to be worn untucked, is it a must for the shirt to have a straight hem?
Not necessarily, but it definitely helps. Otherwise the sides can be very short or the front and back rather long. That works better with heavier overshirts I think, like a flannel with something else underneath
This is interesting to see you say this. I’ve always had a conviction in the opposite direction. That a straight hem untucked looks very awkward. I think it looks quite inelegant, making a shirt look either far too short when untucked or like an awkward skirt if longer. I’d have bought several rayon shirts from Bryceland were they not mainly straight hemmed.
The length of the back and front contrasting with shorter sides – depending on the cut and style of the shirt obviously – I think shapes the body quite nicely when untucked.
I have a couple of shirts I consider shirts to be worn untucked only. One is a billowing silk shirt – think Bradley Cooper’s shirts in A Star is Born – and a couple of rayon shirts that I think hang so nicely – front and bank distinctly longer than the sides – that I find them particularly elegant untucked.
I think it’s important not to see the shirt in isolation. It’s rarely stock still and unmoving. Undo a button at the bottom, so the front opens more naturally. Use the pockets more as well, which opens that front.
On a shirt on its own (rather than an open overshirt) I think this works better than a regular shirt that will be more more or long in either the sides or back.
Great shirt , collar is a bit big but it does look good from an aesthetic point of view.
Kinda unrelated to your post , but was watching a tv show, about how Northampton became a hub of shoemaking and tracks how modern styles developed and why shoes from there are some of the best in the world, I understand you have gone quite into depth in this topic in previous posts, link below if you are interested :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bvg6r4
That’s great, thank you Raj. I haven’t seen that
I think I prefer it with a vest and the sleeves rolled. Plenty of interest in that shape and I imagine it as perfect for a breezy headland.
The paragraph starting with “But as with all the rules…” has a “c” missing in the word “care” near the end.
Did you have any fittings when making your shirt? I personally feel it doesn’t really count as “bespoke” without any fittings, but I know opinions differ on that.
I think the jacket over the untucked shirt works. It wouldn’t if you closed the jacket and we could see any of the jacket peaking under. I agree it is a hard look to work. It maybe works here given the jacket is clearly casual and open taking the formality way down.
Thank you.
No, no fittings, though they would have made alterations on the finished shirt if needed.
I agree though, made to measure is probably more accurate. Less of an issue with shirts than with suits.
A sports shirt is designed to be a casual garment, thus the name sports shirt. It should be worn untucked as you’ve shown and is a really good look when worn correctly. I definitely agree the it should be a straight hem and worn without a jacket. Thanks for the ongoing interesting discussion on this topic. The sports shirt is one of those garments that can look fantastic or terrible. So getting it right in terms of fabric and design is vital.
Hi simon im curious why not just get the bryceland sport shirts? They can work tuck in or tucked out. I could say the same for their cabana shirts too
The collar is longer than this one, and doesn’t roll in this way either. See comments on those on the recent rayon post here
Simon,
It seems you have really gotten a lot of use out of your brown linen trousers this summer.
I have! I should get a second pair for next summer really, rather than carrying on using this pair from my Sexton suit
Not sure about this one Simon! It has a whiff of 80’s work shirt about it and feels (with the pocket and plain front) like it should be an overshirt.
But I do agree on the tucked / untucked dilemma. With my formal shirts, they are always tucked. But a nice oxford untucked with jeans looks great. They just need to be short enough (brooks brothers) rather than too long (emmett)
I may have missed it, but no one seems to have asked if the shirt has improved your dance moves?
Looking forward to the evening event with Tony, and his views on tucked and untucked shirts.
Unfortunately no Michael, still woeful in that regard
I’d wear a linen shirt untucked with swim trunks at the beach but never with trousers in the city. And in the former context the shirt is so short that it can’t be tucked in anyways. To me, the tradeoff described here—between looking good and looking casual—is no choice at all.
Nice shirt, Simon. A suggestion: If the collar size or shape bothers you, why not get it altered a tad? My own tailor has done this many times for me at minimal expense. I love the US Army Surplus wool shirt of a certain vintage (perfect as an overshirt with a T), and the one part of these shirts I don’t care for are the overly long, floppy collars. So I have had them converted to short point collars, without damaging the overall look and balance of the shirt. I think my Army shirts look much better with the shorter, more tidy collars, and it usually costs me just a few dollars.
It’s a good point, Peter, yes. I guess it would make most sense to have that done by Anto themselves, or I’d imagine they’d like to anyway. For the moment I think I’ll keep it this size and try it more, it is nice having that larger option in the wardrobe to play with now and again.
I may well take up your suggestion on an old army shirt I have too though. I guess an issue there is that if the edges are faded, you lose that and the edge could look a little strange?
Yes, if you have a shirt collar with a faded edge, then this does become a problem. But with time and more wear, the altered collar’s edge could itself get some fading.The shirts I have with altered collars were all picked up from Army-Navy Surplus shops here in the US, and they were mostly unworn and unfaded, although new. One of my favourites, though, is a green Army wool shirt that was in the sun with some other object placed over the front panel causing a random fading with the sunlight. I loved this effect. I could alter the collar on this one because that part was not in the sun. But even if it had been, I would have enjoyed the differential fading.
Great outfit Simon, with the shirt tucked in.
The two key rules I grew up with are:
– No white socks
– No T-shirt or vest under a shirt
Rules are made to be broken but not those two.
Thanks.
In this day and age I think it’s important to say that these are just different styles, which others like and we may not. Unless there’s anything a little more objective to say (eg an undershirt being more casual, or less flattering for one reason or another)
Come on mate, the real question is why would u re-watch la la land?!?
It was just on
How many times do you think such a shirt can be worn given the delicate fabric – also I guess it can only be hand-washed?
Or dry cleaned, yes. I wouldn’t actually say the fabric is that delicate, as it’s not that thin compared to some silks, or to superfine cottons.
But I can’t really say how long it would last with any authority, given I haven’t had it that long
Yes sir, of course and think it is a pleasure to hand wash a delicate shirt. As with linen trousers, dry cleaned only after 4 or 5 times you wear it, both ironed with a cotton cloth on. It is ecstasy being involved with this process, with these kind of clothes..
Seems that Brycelands have a similar one in a similar colour, have you tried it?
Yes Alan – the Brycelands collar doesn’t work for me, see comments on that in the rayon shirt article here
Tucked in, rolled sleeves, white undershirtshirt, white socks, whith cuffed highwaisted pleated linen trousers, thats a stylistic “yes” to me. These are the rules (not to be broken) for a classic, a little old fashioned sartorial “casual” look. From the 50s maybe? take a look at Scott Frasers
Thanks Dimitris, yes that’s a great look and Scott does it very well. A strong look though and a bit too much so for me
Hi Simon,
Unrelated — but do you have any advice on how to wear shirts under knitwear? i.e., sweater over button-up.
I find it always gets clumpy with a terribly unflattering shape, even as someone who is thin and fairly tall.
I can see how that might be annoying Clive. It’s likely due to the fit or the materials of the two pieces – eg a closer-fitting and/or thinner knit and a looser and/or chunkier shirt. I’d suggest trying knits that are a little looser, particularly in the chest
hi simon any chance you will do this shirt as an item in the PS shop? I think its quite a niche product (otr ones have too wide/small a collar as mentioned) but relevant in today’s context
I don’t think so, sorry Shem. I know Anto don’t have the capacity to produce their own RTW at the moment, let alone do wholesale
hi simon, would you ever consider wearing this with a tie under a sports coat? I have a bryceland rayon in cream that has a nice collar shape when fastened and appears to go quite well with black knit tie under a sports coat!
I don’t think I would, because of the collar size and because of the material. Perhaps with a thinner rayon like the Bryceland’s, but again with a different collar
Great look Simon. Love that Beegees style 1970s collar. You should be dancing – yeah!
Hi Simon – How does Anto compare with other bespoke shirtmakers like charvet or budd at the top segment? I like my shirts a certain way and would have any bespoke shirtmaker make it that way anyways so trying to compare shirtmakers at the highest level makes it challenging.
I feel that with suits there are so many components and house style really is a differentiating factor but not as much with shirts. Thoughts?
I agree it’s much less of an issue with shirts. Hardly anything is house style – and even things that are, the maker is usually happy to change. Like more pleats on a Neapolitan sleeve or no fusing on a collar.
Anto compares well in terms of make and is similar to the other two in using no real handwork (but unlike a Neapolitan for example). However, I’m not sure I can accurately compare the fit or the style experience having only done the service remotely.
Since you advised wearing an over shirt or something over this type of shirt should you choose to wear it in a casual setting. What determines if something is a jacket, an over shirt, or a shacket. I’ve always been confused by the terminology so would like some clearing up.
From a language use case perspective, the terms are always thrown around loosely, like in this instance, if I said wear a jacket over that, it can go both ways, either a suit jacket, or like a letterman wool bomber jacket.
And even then there are things that blur the line that I’m not even sure where to place them on the scale. Like a Visvim noragi chambray, where does that go into that scale? Or a Carhartt Chore Coat, which looks like an over shirt.
Thanks
It’s a good point Francis, and perhaps we should try to break it down at some point.
But I think there are really three styles here: a jacket, a shirt and a chore coat, and then there are just things that blur them. You know what each is like: a jacket will have those lapels, that rounded bottom at the front, and so on. You know what a shirt looks like. And a chore has a square bottom, smaller lapels, patch pockets.
Let me know if you think it’s worth writing more about this. I feel like those three aren’t that hard to understand, and then it’s just about which elements you like to combine together or not.
Hi simon this may have been discussed before but are you particular about hie many buttons there are on your shirt or more particularly where the top few buttons are? I wear my shirts open neck and often do not button thr first button. I notice 6 button shirts like jakes/vintage brooks leave too wide a gap down almost showing my entire chest. Some shirts like bryceland/anthology move the first button higher up nearer to the neck/top button but i think the v gap/shape is not wide enough.
I don’t count the buttons, but i do bring that second button down a bit on my bespoke shirts, as that is the point I undo them to
Hi simon ir one could only own one chambrsy shirt can i ask which shade you will likely get?
https://www.jakesldn.com/product-page/navy-chambray-shirt
https://www.jakesldn.com/product-page/indigo-chambray-button-down-shirt
Thanks
It’s hard to say as I haven’t seen either in person Shem, but I think the navy
Hi simon, I have a cream bryceland rayon shirt in almost the same shade as your anto one here I have a dark brown sport coat that goes quite nicely with it up top but I struggle to find something for the bottom. What would you suggest?
Charcoal or black?
‘I always, always fold back my shirt sleeves when I’m not wearing a jacket; I feel physically weird if I don’t, and I do it in exactly the way I watched my Dad do it years ago.’
I’ve always liked this look too but struggle to get it right at times. Is there a knack to it or do I just need to fully commit and get a tattoo?
I would say just fold the cuff back twice, and then tuck in a little more or a half tuck if needed – but it shouldn’t be too precise, don’t try and make it so. There’s a fussy tendency with men that are into clothes to want to try and do that. Resist!
Simon, for shirts such as these, but with with straight hem meant to be worn on tucked, do you have a rule of thumb you use for how far down to him should come to in the front? As a shorter guy I feel particularly unsure as I feel like my height leaves less margin for error. Thanks
Yes I know what you mean. I don’t have a rule of thumb really, at least on the front, but on the back I feel like it shouldn’t drop much below the largest point of the bum
That’s a helpful guideline and make sense
Oh good
High quality silk is such a ubiquitous material in places like india and Pakistan. I had some very fine silk shirts made in asia and I have to say that it changed my perspective on the excessive up-charge for such a fabric in Italy and America. It seems we pay a premium for clothes made in these countries but actually there are plenty of fine shirt makers in other parts of the world, for a fraction of the cost.
Now that a little time has passed and your style continues to evolve, how versatile do you find the silk shirt? I have long been intrigued but have never purchased one because I don’t know how well it plugs in. Is it something you would wear during the day, or is it best kept for evenings?
Definitely during the day too, yes. I wouldn’t say it has been super versatile though – it’s more an interesting alternative