Tommy & Giulio Caraceni bespoke tailoring: Review
Last year, I wrote about how one of my favourite tailors in Milan - Ferdinando Caraceni - was closing. It was an interesting article about the challenges of running a bespoke tailor today, but sad for all the customers that had built up a relationship with F Caraceni over the years.
One customer, Andrew, talked on that article about trying to find an alternative, and looking to Tommy & Giulio Caraceni in Rome as a possibility, following our article on them.
Since then, Andrew has had several things made, and been very pleased with them. They’re not exactly the same as his old tailor (the two are part of the same Caraceni world, but not recently related) but that’s neither good nor bad. They certainly seemed to present a really effective and stylish alternative for that Milanese look.
I asked Andrew to reflect on his experience with T&G Caraceni, and the pieces he has had made, so others might consider whether it’s a good alternative for them.
Andrew’s first experience in Rome was a very positive one: “I have never been to a tailor that did a better first fitting than T&G,” he says. “The first fitting of the first jacket they made was close to perfect, with only a few tiny things to adjust.
“One was the length of the left sleeve. Somehow tailors always get that wrong and make it a bit too short at first. This obviously isn't a big deal but it is strange that somehow every tailor I’ve been to gets this wrong.
“The fact the fittings went so well gave me a lot of confidence that I was in good hands. Towards the end this was an issue with Nicoletta [at Ferdinando Caraceni]. There are a few jackets I probably had four fittings on, which is strange when the last was the 15th jacket they made for me. I think it was probably due to lack of experienced staff and too much work for them at that point.”
As the T&G pieces started to be completed, Andrew began to compare the style of both houses:
“Both suits are meant to make a man look his best, and the lapels of both the double-breasted and single-breasted are pretty similar. The DB lapel has that nice olive-shaped sweep, whereas the SB has a bit of belly. The lapel of both my SBs is around 9-9.5cm. I haven't measured DB but it would be very close to the same.
“The Ferdinando jacket has a bit of a ‘stronger’ and more dramatic look, with more pronounced shoulders, a bit more drape, slightly more belly on the lapels, and can have the tendency to look a bit boxy (due to the shoulders).
“The T&G jacket is has a ‘longer’ look I think, which is particularly noticeable in the DB. This is created by slightly less pronounced shoulders, a closer fit (less drape), a slightly higher arm hole, and a little softer construction.
“For the SB, I always ordered two button with Nicoletta whereas T&G's house style is 3-roll-2. The main reason I never ordered 3-roll-2 with Nicoletta is that I never liked how they cut and ironed them. The roll of the lapel was very high, which significantly shortened the lapels. T&G iron their 3-roll-2 pretty much exactly like a two button, which creates a much longer line in the lapel.”
Below is a 3-roll-2 suit made for Andrew. You can see pieces from F Caraceni on Andrew’s reader profile and on the pieces they have made for me.
“The most important difference between the two in terms of house style is that the rollino of the T&G shoulder uses a bit less padding and extends barely beyond the wearer's natural shoulder, whereas the Ferdinando rollino uses more padding and extends further,” continues Andrew.
“T&G's shoulder has a distinctive shape and line, but it is not so strong as Ferdinando's. For example, have a look at the picture of Mastroianni's famous gabardine suit in Ieri Oggi Domani, which I am quite sure they cut, compared to the picture of John Stefanidis (in my opinion, one of Nicoletta's most elegant clients ever) below.
“I would say that T&G's look is probably a bit more modern than Ferdinando's. Mastroianni's jacket must be one of the most beautiful suits in the history of Italian film by the way.
The finishing from both tailors is pretty similar - in other words very good. But T&G is more affordable, perhaps partly reflecting the costs in Milan vs Rome. T&G charge €4500 for a suit including VAT, where Ferdinando was €6000.
Andrew also highlights some similarities and differences in how the two tailors operate: “I would describe Ferdinando and T&G as cousins - there is a definitely a family resemblance but there are also material differences.
“The similarities are the ones you mentioned in your article on T&G: famous name, important clientele, no trunk shows, very loyal to their history and style, vintage fabrics, all production on site, relatively small production. Nicoletta made about 300 garments a year, Andrea says he does around 450.
“But in terms of culture there is a pretty different feeling. With Nicoletta, I always had the impression of someone looking back at the past, towards an ideal time (that may or may not have existed) where everyone went to the tailor and Ferdinando Caraceni had the best clients of all.
“T&G feels more open and forward looking. I actually first visited in September 2023, when I had a bit of extra time on a business trip to Rome. I stopped by to see the ground floor shop and decided to walk in because, as you pointed out, the shop is very welcoming. If it were not on the ground floor with the door open (it was a nice sunny day, as is so often the case in Rome) I probably would not have gone in.
“Andrea [below] is relatively young and very focused on the future of the business. He is training a lot of young people and not looking back to the days of Agnelli, Mastroianni and the other famous clients they had. This was important for me as I didn't want to go through the experience of building up a relationship only for the tailor to close down a few years later.”
Finally, I asked Andrew for some reflections on why this style appeals to him so much: “I'd say this is my view on the Northern Italian industrialist style that has always been a big influence on me, and was effectively outlined in the article Andreas Weinas did for PS a while back.
“Funnily, I remember mentioning to a friend when I was 18 or 19, and Pierce Brosnan as James Bond was being dressed by Brioni, that when I had enough money I would go to Rome and have my suits made there. At the time I didn't know the difference between Brioni and a more traditional tailor. I guess I’ve sort of accomplished that objective, though with a different maker.”
The clothes shown in Andrew’s (consciously industrialist) images are listed below. Feel free to ask him any questions in the comments - though I will mention here that he has no experience of the best known of all Caraceni branches, A Caraceni in Milan, in order to compare with them.
Outfit 1
- T&G Caraceni flannel suit (all tailoring cloths vintage, from either of the tailors)
- Poplin shirt from Siniscalchi
- Edward Green Galway shoes
- Cashmere tie from EG Cappelli
- Valextra bag
Outfit 2
- T&G Caraceni flannel chalk-stripe suit
- Poplin shirt from Siniscalchi
- Wool tie from Cruciani & Bella Rome
- Half brogue oxfords by Stivaleria Mercurio in Rome
- T&G Caraceni covert coat
- Silk scarf from Petronio 1926 in Milan
- Peccary leather gloves (forgotten the maker…)
- Patek Golden Ellipse watch (both outfits)
Two superb suits! I have to say that compared to what I have seen of the F. Caraceni style on both Andrew and Simon, I like these pieces better. Perhaps because they are ever so slightly rounder in the shoulder?
I also noticed that the bespoke shoes are no longer from Stivaleria Savoia. I assume that it’s because Andrew no longer goes to Milan as much as he used to?
hi Isaac, thank you very much. I wouldn’t say the shoulder is rounder. It has less padding and extends beyond the natural shoulder, so it appears less square.
I stopped going to Savoia because they closed a few years ago. They reopened under different ownership a few months ago. They are now owned by the family that owns Illiprandi, the very nice shoe shop in Milan. They have bespoke done by a maker near Bologna, and sell other brands as well.
By the time of change of ownership, I had found Mercurio and am quite happy with them, so don’t really want to try a new maker.
This is very inspiring, thanks a lot! These are the best-looking suits I have seen in a long time, seriously impressive. They look quite sharp with that accentuated shoulder, but still comfortable, with a bit of drape. The lapels are beautiful and the buttoning point is spot on.
Thank you Philip. I am extremely happy with my experience so far with T&G, and from a value for money point of view it is hard to beat. EUR 4500 is not cheap for sure, but when considering the quality of the finished product I find it a very fair price.
Hi Simon, thank you for the nice article. You have captured my experience with T&G and their differences with Ferdinando very well. All the best. Andrew
Reading that article it occurred to me just how comfortable Andrew looks in them .
I’m not sure but have you ever written exclusively on the comfort of tailoring ?
By that I mean how ‘loose’ clothing should be as opposed to fitted .
I’ve tended to find , especially with MTM shirts, I want more in the waist and not so high an armhole .
I think , if not done already, where and by how much, Simon, you prefer ‘extra’ in the waist , armhole etc .
Examples thru measurements would be good .
Over the years I much prefer function over form .
Hi Robin – we did do a piece in quite a lot of detail on shirt fits over the years, here. It’s an interesting mix of preference and style.
Comfort in other things is a little harder to talk about. I get quite a few questions about it, but how ‘high’ an armhole feels is quite subjective – if you’ve worn bespoke before or just Italian jersey jackets for example
hi Robin, I wrote about that in the past in the comments section of the last profile. I believe that being comfortable in your clothes — not only physically comfortable but also “psychologically” comfortable in that the clothes match your vision of how you want to present yourself to the world — is essential for looking good. For example, I could wear a sweat suit and be physically comfortable, but not psychologically comfortable because that is not how I want to present myself to the world.
I believe that these two factors would be aligned for almost anyone that could be considered elegant or well dressed.
Those suits are beautiful!
Would the SB jacket also work as an odd jacket for other (dark) trousers? And how long did it take for them to finish the commission?
Yes, that jacket could work as a separate jacket. Often the price of wales pattern for jackets is a bit bigger, but this one is not too small and could work as does the color.
Start to finish is around 3-4 months. The first jacket is maybe a bit longer as they will most likely to do two fittings before the jacket is done. I am now down to one fitting and the timing is around 3 months, around 2 months till the first fitting and then a few weeks to finish it.
Andrew, congratulations on finding a new tailor that works for you and that you are happy with. I was wondering how much input you gave them on style aspects or whether this is entirely the house style. You look timelessly elegant in both outfits, very well done.
It would be great to have you contribute more regularly here as I feel this look is a wonderful inspiration for style. It is also nice to every now and then have an article about someone who is free of budget constraints in his choice of makers.
One of my favourite articles here in a while! Thank you Simon and Andrew.
Thank you very much Raphael. Both are 100% house style. I didn’t ask them to deviate from their norm. My only contribution were the cloths, which are both vintage flannels I bought from Nicoletta when she closed.
I’d be happy to contribute more if Simon thinks it is beneficial and interesting to PS readers.
The brown glen plaid flannel is fabulous. Great find.
I bought this one from Nicoletta when she closed. I was hesitant to buy it because the cut was exactly 3 meters, and I didn’t think it would be enough to make a suit given the overcheck (I am 6’2”/188cm tall, so I normally need at least 3 meters for a suit). She insisted I take it and said the worst thing that could happen is that it isn’t enough and I have to give it to my wife to use for something.
Fortunately Carlo managed to find a way to make it work. They had to do the trousers pockets in line with the hem rather than slanted pockets like I normally order (this apparently saves quite a lot of fabric) and a few other tricks, but happily for me they managed.
You know you’re deep in the menswear weeds when the most notable item of clothing from Ieri Oggi Domani is Marcello’s suit…
That’s definitely not the only or most memorable part of the film, but it is a beautiful suit.
What a thoroughly interesting and enjoyable piece. I had to go back to the F Caraceni images to ‘compare and contrast’ with T & G. Perhaps it isn’t ‘either or’, so much as ‘how do I feel today’. But having said that, the T & G had the edge for me. Andrew also made several comments which resonated strongly with me: that clothes must be physically and psychologically comfortable, and (in the reader profile), time spent finding one’s personal style is time very well spent indeed. It maybe time consuming and challenging but is a really worthwhile process. In women’s clothing, there is this concept of the ‘fantasy self’ where people are attracted to, and buy, clothes for a ‘fantasy’ self, and for example, have a wardrobe of (unworn) ball gowns, rather than clothes for their actual life. Andrew’s clothes were wonderful and seemed perfecty congruent with his life and style – something I aspire to.
Hi De Rigeur
I exchanged some emails in finding your style with Simon outside of the article. I would say my style has essentially remained the same, with some evolution due to returning to a full pre-Covid travel and in-office work schedule. Despite the change of tailors i think my influences have remained pretty much the same. This is definitely not a fantasy self wardrobe, I dress more or less like this every day, depending of the weather. It was 2 degrees Celsius out on the day of the shoot so the flannel was definitely handy. When it is warmer I use more worsted and gabardine, in the summer more linen. But the colors and style are coherent throughout the year.
Andrew – as others have said, gorgeous cloths and style you have; thanks for the inspiration. Just wondering whether you’ve found any convincing summer equivalents / alternatives to chalkstripe (which, in flannel, would obviously be unbearable in warmer months!)?
Very nice suits, and I need that green tie!
Is the buttoning point lower on the double breasted (compared to the solaro DB in the other article) or is it just an impression?
Hi Dario
I’ve never measured but my gut feeling Is that it’s a little bit lower. I think that is what contributes to the longer look of the T&G DB.
Hello Andrew,
Thank you for sharing your experience with T&G. The cut is superb—truly distinctive. I concur that the T&G jacket appears appreciably longer than the Nicoletta and exhibits significantly less drape around the body, culminating in a more structured, less boxy silhouette. However, do you find this closer fitting less comfortable compared to Nicoletta’s design? Additionally, are you aware of any RTW brands that offer a similar cut? I have yet to encounter any, which renders it even more unique.
By the way, I must say, you bear a striking resemblance to Ralph Fiennes.
Best,
Richard
The fit is a bit closer. I wouldn’t say it is less comfortable but there is for sure less margin for error for gaining weight, wearing a medium heavy knit underneath, etc. I am thinking of having a tweed jacket done next year and when I do I’ll ask them to give me some more room to fit a heavy knit underneath.
And thank you for the Ralph Fiennes comment. He is one of my favourite actors, but comparing me to him is a bit of an insult to him I’d say…
I had actually picked up on the Ralph Fiennes likeness also.
So did I!
Count me among those who thought of Fiennes
Very nice suits – they look great. Andrew, the patterns are quite classically English, even if the cut is Italian. Did you think of going a bit more consciously Italian with the cloth (colour etc) given the tailor? If not, why not? I have gone down the English route – cut, weight, cloth, patterns etc – but I think if I did go down the Italian route, I’d want to go “all out”, as it were. I don’t mean dressing like Don Johnson, but you know what I mean? (Maybe I mean flashy, not sure).
Hi Rammy
I have always preferred English cloths combined with more structured Italian tailoring. I like the weight and the more conservative colors and patterns of English cloths. Nicoletta and Andrea Caraceni had/have very similar preferences to mine in terms of cloths. This has facilitated the transition quite a lot.
>> I have always preferred English cloths combined with more structured Italian tailoring.
Your teenage aspiration of dressing like Pierce Brosnan’s James Bond makes a lot of sense then! To my eye those suits still look good.
Very nice suits! I haven’t commented on PS in a long time. I’m Just not at a point in my life where I’m spending a lot of money on clothes (kids are 8 and 10 and really like to go skiing ha!). But I felt compelled to make a post about how good these suits, especially the Glen Check one. That one seems timeless. Really like it and you look great in it. Cheers!
Thank you very much. I really like the glen check because of the colors – it is a sort of taupe which is neither too brown nor too beige. It is a bit unusual compared to the standard grey / salt-and-pepper glen check (which is also really nice) but not so much that it is a hard to wear.
It was made, or at least distributed, by Hunt & Winterbotham, who made exceptionally good cloth. If any readers have any unused cuts of their fabrics laying around, I would love to add some more to my stock…
It is almost if these photographs were taken in the late 80s and reproduced for this article!
I would be interested to learn of the process of finding your new tailor – from elimination of potential replacements in Milan or elsewhere in Northern Italy to T&G in Rome. And in particular what the main factors were. Or maybe it wasn’t that methodical and just more emotional instead.
Cheers!
Hi Charles. There wasn’t much method to it really. I went into T&G when I had some free time in Rome one day and really liked what I saw. That was about a month before Nicoletta closed.
There are really not very many tailors left in Milan to consider. A Caraceni is still going strong, but since I liked what I saw at T&G I didn’t really think it made sense to try a different Caraceni. I gave some thought to Musella Dembech, but given they are such a small operation I didn’t want to run the risk of another closure. There are maybe some other small tailors but I don’t really know who’d they would be.
And thank you for your very kind comment as well.
For me it is not an 80ties feel per se but I do associate the photographs with another time. I love the first photograph and the one with the orange windows in the background. Perhaps the formality of the suits has something to do with it (you hardly see this in the Netherlands anymore), but I think it is more about the lighting and the fact that no filters were applied, or so it appears. You look like a real person, Andrew, which is positive in this day and age!
Hi Wouter, thank you very much for the last comment. As you’ll have noticed compared to my last profile I’ve got a lot less hair (though I think my current haircut suits me a lot better) and I’ve made no other efforts to artificially show down my natural ageing process. I’m quite happy the way I am.
Good on you, Andrew – it shows in the photographs. And the shorter haircut looks better on you, I agree.
Hi Simon,
Would it be possible to have a post on upcoming PS releases please? I’m sure already in the works!
Thanks
Yep – coming Friday!
Andrew, Nicoletta and Andrea’s tailoring both look great on you. The quote about Pierce Brosnan really resonates with me too, as he was one of the first who got me into tailoring, apart from my father and grandfather.
I think what draws me to the Caraceni style is the strong and slightly extended shoulder. On Savile Row, strong shoulders usually seem more narrow, whereas soft shoulders there are extended. I’ve used both those English styles – they look different to my eye than the Caracenis.
I’ve long thought about traveling from NYC to T&G, since they don’t travel. I won’t be able to go to Italy for quite awhile though, unfortunately…so for now, it remains a sartorial daydream.
I don’t have any experience with Savile Row so can’t compare directly.
T&G don’t do trunk shows, but Andrea does travel to visit (big) clients from time to time. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are one or two in NY. Maybe you could send him an email to register your interest in case he ever travels there to visit other clients?
Thank you, Andrew. That’s a great idea. I’ll reach out.
Andrew – greetings from Rome! Congratulations on your splendid suits (I also think the jetted pockets help with the silhouette – something also seen on most on Marcello Mastroianni’s suits). The Ieri, Oggi, Domani suit is wonderful but Mastroianni always looked good in beige and cream suits as well as the black suits in La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2. He also looks great in Matrimonio all’Italiana. Even when I was a teenager he was a style icon for me. Nonetheless, it might not be entirely fair to compare two styles of suit when Marcello Mastroianni is the person wearing one of them!
Hi Jason
I agree on the jetted pockets. I’ve not had anything done by either with patch pockets as I find they don’t suit the style of either house very well. For suits I don’t have flaps, for jackets I do but normally push them inside the pocket.
Mastroianni could indeed wear about anything and look great, but John Stefanidis also isn’t bad at all. If you google him I think you’ll find he looks very good in pretty much any photo you’ll find.
There’s been a nice stream of articles on tailoring recently. Thank you.
No problem, pleased you’ve liked them
Thanks Andrew – really nice shots. Can I ask about the Prince of Wales suit and how versatile you’ve found it as I think Simon has found a previous A&S POW to be not so versatile. And any tips in this regards if you were to commission one again – such as fabric, size of check etc
There is no doubt the suit is more casual than the DB chalk stripe. I don’t use it when I have important meetings but otherwise I actually find it pretty easy to wear. I have a fair number of suits so it is also something that I don’t wear every week necessarily. The color is a taupe which is neither too brown nor beige, and I haven’t found it to be “too much”. If I were to do it again I would order it the same way: DB would definitely be more showy, a grey POW could be nice but possible a little more standard.
Hey Andrew. I kinda like your style, especially those shades of brown and grey correspond to my own preferences.
Are you posting your outfits on social media by any chance? I like wearing suits, too, albeit rather plain with more patterned ties. From what I have seen I find your taste inspirational and very tasteful.
All the best and thanks for displaying your experiences on PS.
Hi DS. I’m not on social media. I did have an IG account but i haven’t used it in 3-4 years now.
Where did you take these photos? The modernist atmosphere is great, captured nicely by the photographer.
Hi Martin
They were taken in Zurich, where I live. Specifically down by the lake in the Seefeld neighbourhood.
Wow. Outstanding!
Thank you Ragnar!
Andrew brilliant suits! Do you know if its true if Carlo the head cutter is retiring soon? And, if so, would you trust the style and quality to continue on (even for new clients without an existing pattern)?
I have never asked the question directly. But he was born in 1938 so I would guess he will retire at some point. Andrea is a trained cutter and he would take over. He was trained by his grandfather and Carlo so I expect the house is in good hands.
Welcome back, Andrew. Suits look great. Love the Ellipse too. Really classy watch.
Thank you Jarred. It was a gift when my third son was born and I really love it.
Congratulations on an interesting and insightful piece Andrew & Simon.
Andrew, they are beautiful commissions and suit you perfectly. I liked the commentary on the combination of muted British cloth & Italian craftsmanship. That really resonates with me as I feel it describes the sort of tailoring I like. Appreciate the inclusion of Marcello Mastroianni’s still as well. I agree that it is one of those suits on screen that stands out above the pack.
You’ve given me 2 x tie makers to go away and have a look at. The ties / accessories are beautiful I must say.
I hope we see and hear some more from you Andrew. Based on this snippet, it sounds like you’ve amassed a wardrobe that most of the PS readers would love to see more of.
Cheers,
Tim.
Thank you Tim. Cruciani and Bella is a really charming little shop.
If you ever have the chance to make to go Rome it is worth a visit. They also sell online.
Both suits – indeed all of the items shown – are really beautiful and the article very insightful. I remember thinking how well Andrew dresses after I read his reader profile. And, as a fellow resident, it’s fun to see photos of Zürich on PS.
Hi Andrew
I remember commenting on your profile article a few years ago and how your different jackets and clothing choices demonstrated an understated elegance but also careful decision making on fabrics.
I think the glen check suit in particular is just wonderful. The silhouette of the jacket and the trouser cut looks so elegant. Very reminiscent of some of the check jacketing and suiting worn by Agnelli. Another response above mentioned an assertive and purposeful late 80s/early 90s industrialist vibe which is high praise as in some ways I think it is the high point of menswear.
All the best
H
Thank you very much. It is always a style that has resonated with me since I was young. I guess I got it in my head early and my preferences haven’t really changed since then.
Superb, and unfortunately rare, example of real permanent style.
Among the many outstanding aspects of the suits are the slim sleeves and very high armholes that are key features of the best Italian tailoring.
Many congratulations to Andrew and his tailors.
hi Dr. P., thank you very much. There was a question above on the comfort of Andrea’s jackets given the slightly closer fit than Ferdinando. The very high arm hole is very important for the comfort of the jacket — despite the closer fit, I have very easy mobility which is key to comfort thanks to the high armhole.
Question for Simon and Andrew — when you do a bespoke suit, do you ask for the trousers to sit at the hip, the waist, somewhere in between? And how “loose” should it be for comfort when seating down? Thanks a lot!
I wouldn’t describe it in words GG, but indicate on my body – and wear trousers to the fitting that I already liked the fit of, so that was easier to indicate
The looseness in the leg is a personal thing and a style thing, but they should have a nice, clean drape to be elegant and not need pulling down when you stand up
hi GG, I like the waist of my trousers to sit on the hip bone. I show the tailor on my body where I like them to set. I wear braces with suit trousers, so I don’t need them too tight at the waist. After trying with belts and side adjusters, I found that braces hold up trousers better than other options.
Andrew could easily be a doppelganger for Ralph Fiennes. So uncanny. But damn, you wore those suits so well. Go get an agent.
Given the number of (very flattering) comments maybe I should think of a side hustle as a Ralph Fiennes double.
I adorn the grey covert coat very much! While so far I’m just settled wit the fawn cordings rtw version, I’ve been thinking that a grey covert coat would be much more proper and versatile in the urban setting. Now I’ve got the proof! I wonder if you used the fox brother covert fabric for this one?
The cloth is a vintage cut that Andrea Caraceni had on the shelf. I don’t recall the maker, but it is pretty similar to the heavy covert that fox made recently.
Pierce Brosnan wore some remarkably elegant bespoke Brioni suits, blazers and sports coats during his Bond tenure.They have aged very well. Simon what did you make of his on screen efforts ?
I haven’t looked in much detail at them to be honest!
Indeed these are aging MUCH better than what Daniel Craig wore during his run.
I don’t think Daniel Craig’s excessively tight suits looked good at the time.
The Master (in bespoke Doug Hayward) and the apprentice (in bespoke Brioni) on the set of Goldeneye.
What kind of Valextra bag is that? It does not appear to be on their website, and it’s gorgeous.
It is the S-Line. I have had it for around 15 years now. I think they stopped making it at one point. I thought they restarted but am not sure about that.
👍
I should have mentioned, if you like this you may try contacting Valextra to ask if they can do it MTM. I know they in the past they have some of their classic pieces that were not in production at the time on an MTM basis.
Thanks!
I don’t understand the economics of a tailor storing vintage fabrics. Am I to understand that the shop purchased lengths of cloth years ago and has simply sat on it? Rubinacci also seems to have an archive of vintage fabric. Maybe someone can shed light on how this works?
It varies Aaron, but sometimes tailors commission cloth of their own, exclusively woven for them, and so have that for several years. Sometimes they buy up cloth from merchants or mills when they have ends of runs to sell off. Sometimes they acquire them from other tailors.
But it basically comes down to the fact that tailors used to feel more that they couldn’t ask their customers to buy cloth just from a swatch. So they had to have more cloth sitting around, that a customer could drape across themselves and get a sense of. If you look at old pictures of Savile Row tailors, the front of the shops are just stacks of cloth everywhere.
We could argue that should be brought back, but it is an extra cost and not one many tailors can afford
I also understand that in the past (up until the 2000s) many mills didn’t have swatch books. The mills’ local representatives went around to tailors with lengths of fabric. A tailor would buy for example, 9 meters (3 suits) or 15 meters (5 suits) or whatever they thought they needed. Jackets on the other hand were sold by individual lengths, often 1.6-1.8 meters which was enough for one jacket. Given people are much bigger than in the past a lot of vintage jacket cuts can’t be used any more whereas suit cuts can because they are longer.
A lot of the vintage fabrics that someone like Andrea has are what is left from those lengths they bought in the past. As good fabric is expensive, they kept whatever they didn’t use on the shelves to sell to future clients.
Thank you Andrew
Simon, thank you for the detailed reply.
Andrew been a fan of your commissions for ages since the last reader profile. The Italian industrialist vibe/look is something I’ve grown to prefer as I get older and order more clothes. I find myself referencing your pictures when I’m thinking of commissions. Glad you found a new tailoring home, nothing is worse than being without!
Simon I feel like a roundtable symposium (like you did with the tailors previously) or filmed one on ones (like with Anda etc) would be great to do should a couple of the lads be in London concurrently.
Thanks Jonathan. You mean with the Caraceni guys, or with a few readers/contributors like Andrew?
I had a crisis of sorts at the end of 2023 when both my tailor and shoemaker closed within a few weeks of each other. I have fortunately found a new home for both and I am very satisfied. First world problems I suppose.
I think another tailors round table would be great, but I think we’d get a lot of value add out of one with readers. You have such a diverse selection of readers from the workwear world all the way to class menswear and comparing and contrasting opinions and points of view is always great to see. I think it’s more that those of us who like clothes, don’t look at them as costumes but as things we order and care about and want to be able to work into our day to day lives where coats and ties are a once a week thing at most. The reader profiles help give us perspective and ideas as to things to try. I like what Andrew does with one thing, what Jake Grantham does with another, your opinions and I amalgamate and test.
But that’s just my finance side looking for more relevant data haha
Hi Andrew and Simon,
I have always admired the Ferdinando Caraceni lapel belly and overall jacket shape – imo, it had just the right amount of dramatic elements, which were still present but not as much as in a Sexton or C&M jacket – so I’d like to ask a couple of questions.
Has any of you had experiences with Nicoletta’s cutter, Margherita, after she started her own business, or knows more about it than her website says?
Also, do you think T&G would be available to make a slightly more bellied and curved lapel? I know it is not fully coherent with their house style, but maybe it’s not a variation too drastic to ask for.
To conclude, let me thank you for the wonderful article, I had been looking for a more in-depth view on T&G for a while. A couple of months ago a person stopped me in the street and told me “I aspire to dress as you do someday”… Well, Andrew, allow me to say I aspire to dress as you do someday.
hi Davide, wow, thank you for the very nice compliment. That is a very nice way to start Monday morning.
I would probably not recommend asking Andrea to vary too much from their house style, but not because Andrea is particularly rigid. Rather, tailors are good at making their house style because they do it over and over again. If you ask any tailor to deviate too much, the risk is that the result is less than satisfactory because they are doing something they really don’t know how to do.
I spoke with Andrea about their jacket in the past and he says that what makes it distinctive is that he has stayed true to the “sistema taglio” that Domenico Caraceni invented many years ago. This is essentially how the measurements of the client’s body get translated into the proportions of their jacket. Every tailor of course has this, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to make a pattern for the jacket. But according to Andrea the distinctiveness is in the proportions (he didn’t reveal to me their secrets…). I think asking for a more bellied lapel would in some way interrupt those proportions and the result might not be what you are hoping for.
I haven’t had anything made by Margherita, but I have gone by her workshop to have a jacket altered. From what I have seen in the works, their style seems pretty similar to Ferdinando. The operation also seems to be working pretty well, as they now have three tailors in addition to Margherita, but again I cannot comment from personal experience. If you are interested in that, I would rather suggest you go there than to Andrea and ask him to deviate from what they have been doing for almost 100 years.
Hi Andrew B, I hope you are keeping well. A question in regards to F.Caraceni’s (well now Margherita’s) and T&G’s jackets as SB’s and DB’s (if you can comment), what are the main differences between shoulder and lapel?
Many thanks, Roberto.
Hi Roberto,
I would say the differences are subtle but the combination of them makes a significant difference.
T&G’s shoulder has less padding and extends only a little bit beyond the wearer’s natural shoulder. It is certainly not soft like a Neapolitan shoulder but it is less strong the Ferdinando shoulder.
The SB lapels are almost exactly the same width but the T&G has a little less belly, a slightly higher gorge, and a slightly lower buttoning point than the Ferdinando lapel. We are talking about 0.5-1cm but these kind of subtle changes make a difference. This is especially noticeable in the later jackets that Ferdinando made for me. For some reason Nicoletta decided to make the lapels with much more belly and a lower gorge than the early jackets she did for me.
The combined effect is that lapel of the T&G jacket is and looks longer than the Ferdinando jacket. This is one reason why I never orders a 3-roll-2 from Nicoletta. It made the lapel look even shorter.
So far I have noticed less differences in the lapel of the DBs. A friend of mine in Rome who also goes to T&G says their DB lapel resembles of the shapes of an olive leaf, with a long and subtle curve. The belly of their lapel may be slightly less round than Ferdinando but the difference is pretty subtle. The T&G DB jacket still has a longer look but I attribute that more to the less strong shoulder than the lapel.
Overall, I would say the T&G jacket (both DB and SB) gives a slightly longer and slimmer look than the Ferdinando jacket, which is a bit of a stronger and more V-shaped jacket (due to the stronger shoulders).
I think both have a place. Now that I have both, I find the T&G jacket a bit easier to wear on more occasions because it is less dramatic. I find this particularly the case for business and also sport jackets (Simon has written elsewhere he finds the Ferdinando SB a bit hard to wear). If it were still open I’d go to Ferdinando for jackets for a special event or where I wanted something dramatic. I think it falls into the category of Edward Sexton or Joe Morgan in that way.
I hope this is helpful.
Dear Andrew and Simon
Thank you very much for your detailed reply.
In addition to your insightful commentary, I was wondering if the combination of a higher gorge and lower buttoning point in T&G Caraceni’s tailoring creates a longer lapel line and thus a lengthening effect. By contrast, would you say that the jackets from F. Caraceni appear more truncated or boxy? Might this be attributed to the absence of front darts, which is reminiscent of the Florentine cut? I recall Simon’s article on F. Caraceni’s grey cashmere suit mentioning the lack of front darts.
Is this omission a standard characteristic of their house style? I ask because, upon examining your brown tweed jacket in the reader profile, I noticed visible front darts. It would be great if you could clarify this point, as both houses (and indeed the related house with Margherita) share similarities. The difference may now simply come down to the convenience of travelling to Milan rather than Rome!
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Best regards,
Roberto
hi Roberto, all of the F Caraceni jackets I have do have front darts. I am not sure about Simon’s jackets and why they might not have used them, but mine do have them.
Regarding the boxiness, the F Caraceni jacket definitely risks looking boxier than T&G because of the combination of stronger shoulders and a shorter lapel on the SB jackets. This is especially noticeable on the more recent jackets they did for me.
For reasons that remain unclear to me, at some point in time around mid 2022, Nicoletta started making my jackets with a more bellied lapel, lower gorge and higher buttoning point. She never said anything to me about the change but there is a very noticeable difference in style. If you look at jackets of theirs from the 1990s, they are quite similar to those she did for me towards the end, so it is not completely new for them. Their earlier SB’s are much more similar to T&G, in that the look is longer and leaner. The shoulders are still stronger and more padded, but the jacket is overall more similar to T&G.
F Caraceni’s DB is also boxier than T&G but the effect is less noticeable than for the SB. Have a look at two different profiles and you will see some difference, but it isn’t as great as for the SBs.
In terms of quality, satisfaction, silhouette, and completeness, which one is better between A&S in the UK and T&G Caraceni in Rome?
I would like to know your opinion which one is better out of the two.
I would really appreciate it if you could compare the two.
Thank you!!
You can’t really say either is better than the other when they’re such different styles, YJ. Which one do you prefer the silhouette of?
Strong shoulders like those are not my favourite style (unfortunately, since I’m in Rome), but very beautiful classic tailoring. I’d say you achieved the “Italian industrialist” look you were going for perfectly.
I wonder if anyone tried sartoria La Montagna, which opened up in Frascati not long ago. Different style obviously but seems very interesting to me, and promising.
Yes, I worked with La Montagna on over a dozen projects and brought them several other clients because at first the jackets seemed well made, well priced and a nice style. The style is Neapolitan with a twist, since that is where Milena is from. Her partner Cristian, who refers to himself as the ‘mastermind’, is from Frascati, which is why they have settled there. Initially, they seemed friendly, polite and ambitious, but unfortunately that turned out not to be the case.
It became clear quite soon that they have a habit of breaking their promises (regarding meeting times, frequency of visits, shipping dates, adjustments not being done at the next fitting, not bringing items during a meeting, finishing garments before they were ready, etc.). Whenever I gently pointed out that they had promised something (often even in writing) which had not been done, they would start arguments, deny what we had agreed, and blame me (without basis). Communication was poor and my messages were frequently ignored for weeks.
Trousers were always an issue and would in some cases be barely acceptable after 5+ meetings. One pair even had to be remade entirely from new cloth (fortunately, it was a separate pair). Even though I specifically asked for a loose cut, they cut the trousers tight and didn’t include extra fabric for alterations, so now I’m stuck with several slim/tapered trousers.
Finishing was generally sloppy (unfinished seams, hems coming apart, buttons falling off, basting thread and chalk everywhere) and many items started falling apart shortly after delivery. I even had to get some issues fixed by a local tailor, since he could do it in a few days instead of several months. Other issues I had to get fixed by La Montagna, such as seams coming apart showing the canvas inside a coat. While they did repair the items, it took forever and sometimes needed to be done twice. Still they acted as if they were doing me a wonderful favour.
Describing them as rude and unprofessional would be an understatement. I eventually decided not to work with them again and after experiencing similar performance, so did the other clients I brought in. Ultimately it was their poor attitude that ended the relationship.
In short, can not recommend. Cheers
Thank you for sharing your experience, although it’s a pity, I was even considering trying them out as my first bespoke at some point in the near future.
One year with the new tailor, and already 15 jackets..? or do I misunderstand? 🙂
I went to Ferdinando for 6 or 7 years before they closed and they did around 15 things for me. Apart from what you see in this post, T&G has made me one other jacket.