Why have these bespoke shoes aged so well?

Monday, February 22nd 2021
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What shoes do we still find ourselves wearing after 10 years, and why? 

I find this is mostly about making sensible, functional choices; then a little bit about quality and fit; and almost nothing to do with bevelled waists or stitches per inch. 

We’ve covered in the past the glories of good leather shoes, and how they age. The patina that develops on the leather, the comfort of moulded upper and insole, the intense character they have - which makes them like no other. 

That is all true, and bears repeating. Particularly in an era when all you see are trainers, which lose all their fresh-faced appeal within a year, let alone 10. 

However, there’s no point having great well-made leather shoes if you don’t wear them. Most of the patina comes from wear, after all, and pretty much all of the joy. 

So why am I still wearing this pair of Cleverley bespoke shoes, 10 years after I commissioned them? Why do I think I will be for another 20? 

They were a good, versatile choice for a first pair of smart shoes. 

They are very dark brown, which means they can go with even the darkest trousers - such as navy and charcoal - as well as mid-grey and other minor colours. 

Brown was more versatile for me than black, as I always worked in a less formal office. No one would consider it inappropriate to wear this colour with a suit, and it can be worn with a range of jackets and trousers too, even smart trousers and knitwear. 

To keep that versatility, they were also best as an oxford (derby or loafer might be harder with a suit) and as a simple design - a toe cap, with just one line of brogueing. 

Alternatives would have been a whole cut (smarter), monk strap (perhaps smarter, certainly more unusual), derby (too casual for most business suits) or a full brogue (too casual again).

The last shape is quite elongated, but not overly so for a formal shoe, I don’t think. They are a tiny bit shorter than my Masaru Okuyama, for instance, but longer than my Yohei Fukuda

So, I made good choices. I haven’t always. 

My second commission with Cleverley was a black wingtip, which was a good second choice. But the third, a Russian double monk, was a bit of a mismatch: a casual material in a fairly showy style, on a rather formal last.

It took me four years to correct that, with a shoe from Stefano Bemer that was a better style and last for the leather. All three shoes are shown above, in that order.

I did a personal consultancy session recently with a reader, who was looking to build out a collection of good shirts and jackets. Every time on these calls, we end up talking about slowing down - buying less, more slowly, with more thought in between. 

Everyone makes mistakes, most obviously (and publicly) me. The very least you can do is give yourself the chance to learn from them before repeating the process. 

I’ve worn these Cleverley shoes consistently and with pleasure, because they were a good choice. They weren’t always a great fit though. Or at least, not a great fit for bespoke. 

When I wrote a wear report on these shoes, back in 2011, I praised the way they held my ankle, and didn’t bite across my big toe, as most RTW oxfords do. 

But looking back on it, I was really just saying they fitted better than RTW - which they did. Not better than RTW derbys, actually, which have greater range across the instep; but better than RTW oxfords or loafers.

Having had so much bespoke since then, I think I was a little generous. The arch could follow the line of my foot better, and for a long time they pinched my little toe after several hours of wear - or long periods of walking. 

We stretched them in that area last year - which I should have done much earlier - and it made a big difference. Now I feel they justify being described as a good fit. 

If you’re going to have shoes and wear them for a long time, they need to be comfortable. The fit needs to be good. Not just RTW good, but bespoke good.

And that’s why today it’s the first thing I praise - when I have them from Yohei Fukuda or Nicholas Templeman for example - and only talk about aesthetic things like room in the vamp, or between the facings, later on. 

Good style, good fit. How about quality? 

The quality of the leather certainly makes a difference, though more in the aesthetics than the comfort. Very cheap leathers can be uncomfortable, but getting a high-grade leather - as you would expect from a bespoke maker - is more about how it polishes and looks over time. 

I’ve generally found my bespoke shoes to be comparable to top-end RTW in that respect. I see no difference in quality between Edward Green and Masaru Okuyama, for example. 

However, these Cleverley shoes have always been a bit different from my RTW - not worse, just different. 

The leather is noticeably thinner, which makes it supple, and look delicate, in a dressy way. But it also wrinkles more, highlighting any fit issues. And it’s less robust, taking on rain and salt stains easily, for example. 

The other big area of quality is hand stitching. Bespoke shoes like these have their welts and soles hand stitched, which is stronger than normal machine stitching. Other aspects of the construction should make the shoe stronger too. 

But these are very much in the long run. The only thing I can say at this stage - in my still relatively short experience - is that these points have so far made no difference. 

My machine sewn (often called ‘benchmade’) shoes from Edward Green are almost 15 years old, worn as much as these Cleverleys, resoled a couple of times, and look pretty much the same.

The best I can really say is, I’ll report back in another 10 years - and of course, ask readers whether they’ve noticed any difference, if they’ve had comparable shoes for longer. 

Then we get to the very fine making points. The number of stitches the maker has managed per inch. The precise line of the heel pitch. 

I completely understand why people are interested in these things. They have echoes in the finer details of wine vintages, or engine performance. I also understand because they are passions I’ve gone through in my time.

I would only say that, over the years, they become irrelevant if the other things aren’t right. 

I would prefer it if my Stefano Bemer hatchgrain shoes were made of the original Russian leather, rather than a recreation. But that’s irrelevant compared to the style and last of the Cleverleys in that original leather - because I rarely wear them. 

The same goes for the precision of work in the heel or waist of a shoe. The loafers I had made by Daniel Wegan when he was at Gaziano & Girling have the most beautiful waist of any of my shoes. But there were issues with the fit, and they are an unusual style. They’re probably worn a tenth as much as these Cleverleys. 

I started this article asking why I still wear and love these shoes, after a decade (actually, now I check, 11 years). 

What makes them most likely that I’ll still be wearing them in another 20, like Bruce Boyer’s old jacket, or Nicoletta’s? What makes them great things that will actually have a chance to age?

The answers are boring ones, but important. They are a style I like, and a style that works for what I wear. They are comfortable, and they have character. 

As people wear formal shoes less, these things will become even more important. If you’re going to invest in good shoes, they should be ones you’ll get lots of use out of. Even if they’re the only dress shoe you own. 

Photography: Alex Natt @adnatt

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Gary Mitchell

KISS, keeping it simple is never a bad thing. My simple classics in shoes and other clothes always get the most wear and therefore are the best value. Now if only I could ‘always’ keep to that when I buy new.

James

On the point of what ‘lasts’, appreciating it’s a tangential piece: I inherited a couple of my grandfather’s suits from Weatherill from the mid 60s. After that period of time the stitching in the arm holes really has now come undone (easy fix, I know). But they are made of a c.15+oz flannel and as such, the drape / overall shape of the jackets looks brand new. I suspect with something like a 10oz they would have work through long ago at any stress points? Guessing it may be the same with the leather on shoes…?

jmehpg

Hi Simon,

Spooky timing on this post. I assume it was me who was your consultation client, which we had a couple of weeks back. I think reading the line about slowing down is a point I can do with reflecting on at the moment.

Yesterday I was going to comment on your shoe capsule collection post, asking where to go next with my shoe collection.

Currently:

1. C&J Oxford – dark brown
2. C&J Harvard loafer – brown cordovan
3. C&J Black oxford with brogue at the toe cap
4. EG Belgravia antique oak
5. G&G Chadwick in two shades
6. Couple of C&J chukkas in snuff and rough-out. Regret the former as, in hindsight, probably prefer the Shanklin or Saint Crispin’s offering.
7. C&J oxford suede in espresso

So, I have some basics covered here. A few regrets also (mainly too much C&J – useful though for getting a base covered).

Intuitively, I lack a tan, although I really struggle to find any that I like, possibly scarred by seeing men wearing them in navy suits. The only way I can see to plug this void is with EG Dover in snuff/tan suede, which is interesting as the Dover in any other shade/material I really find off-putting.

Next thinking is:

1. SC oxford with brogueing around the tan, or possibly G&G’s Cambridge in oak/dark brown
2. SC loafer based on 539N in a mid or dark brown
3. SC Split toe derby in mid/dark brown, mod 566

I am not a big fan of Derby’s in general, but I could be tempted further down the line by an SC SCO leather. I think at this stage also a black calf loafer.

Are there any gaps that you would plug?

H

JMEHPG –

If you really want a tan I would look at getting an oxford in G&G’s “tan hatch grain”; Stefano Bemer’s “1786 replica leather”; or SC’s “russian calf”.

I think the problem with a smooth tan calf is that it is a casual colour in a very smooth and smart material, so it always looks mismatched. With a hatch grain it drops all the navy suit connotations and looks great with grey flannels, tan chinos and every shade of denim.

jmehpg

Simon – I think you are right, on reflection. Maybe tan just does not work for me, rather than there not being the ‘right’ tan out there.

H – thanks for the hat tip. I wasn’t familiar with Stefano Bemer, looking at their cap toe oxford in museum calf may be taking an order away GG/SC.

With these hatch grains, like the russian calf, do you think they typically work best on derby’s, versus say an oxford, because of the informality?

H

For what its worth I actually like G&G’s tan hatch grain the most of the three I mentioned. The same one that features on the “Crompton” (see link below), which is of course named after Simon and now available RTW.

I have the St James II in Tan Hatch Grain on a bespoke round last, which I was lucky enough to pick up at a sample sale 4 or 5 years ago. It isn’t typical G&G in that its slightly a bulkier last, which helps with making it just casual enough for denim.

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2018/01/gaziano-girling-introduces-my-loafer-the-crompton.html

William Nixon

Great article, many thanks Simon!
I wonder, is there a difference between RTW and bespoke laces? And how your bespoke shoes’ laces have lasted compared to others, on the topic of how things age.
Wrong post I know, but I was wondering when you were planning on posting about vents and pleats for overcoats?
Thanks!

ian

the leather has aged beautifully, I have recently purchased a pair of cleverleys in the mr porter sale, do you think the they would use better leather for bespoke to rtw?

Felix

The RTW Cleverleys sold at Mr. Porter are made by Crockett & Jones anyways, and very visibly so. I believe only the “Anthony Cleverley” line is made by Cleverley themselves (or at least by a more high-end producer – who knows given GCs questionable understanding of transparency), and the one pair I have are about the same quality as EG (slimmer waist and nicer heel line though).

Ian

Thanks felix , I heard that the rtw were made by c and j but I Friend of mine after speaking to George Glasgow is under the impression that the line I’ve bought (part of the kingsman range) is actually made in london by gc which if it was true would mean the price paid(£330) would be a bargain either way they are a nice brown whole cut so I’m happy

James

That said, Ian, Cleverley RTW are made by Crockett and Jones (I understand to their “Handgrade” specs. So you should (particularly in the sale) be getting great quality at an excellent price – see praise for C&J across the site earlier in the month

Robin

Beautiful article .
At a time when we long for the return of normality this is the kind of article that gets one longing for once again wearing beautiful things .

On the subject of shoes I was asked by a friend to recommend a quality shoe.
He’s someone whose previously purchased high fashion , brand rubbish. Thereby paying a lot of money for inferior products.
His specification was a shoe with versatility and longevity at a ‘reasonable’ price (something a lot of people who ask my advice always say is ,” for that kind of money I want to wear it ALOT and for it to last many, many years).
I recommended the ‘Crockett & Jones Tetbury’.
It can be worn in all weathers and worn formally with a suit or casually making it very versatile.

Would be interested to note what you would recommend.

Luke

A lovely exmaple of the versatility of a dark brown oxford. You speak to this having been a good choice for your first bespoke, but given the versatility of dark brown combined with an increasingly more casual professional world and the conservative style of an oxford, might it have overtaken the black oxford as the best ‘first shoe’?

On your point about stretching to deal with a pinched little toe: I tend to have this problem with most shoes (the length of time needed for it to start to bother me differs, but it’s an issue with most of them). I mostly wear EGs on the 202 last, E width. I also tend to get that biting over the big toe. Might this be a case of having been incorrectly sized? Or do you think perhaps stretching might deal with both problems?

Jan

I have to disagree on this one. If you have to pick your first pair of decent shoes (say when you reach legal age) it should be a pair of shoes that works for funerals, weddings, black tie and the most formal (business or other, eg tea with the Queen) meetings. That will always be black. Brown shoes, however dark, are still frowned upon in many situations, not just the most formal office.

Jan

Ps. I love the reindeer monks! Are they for sale 🙂

Sam

Jan – I think this view is much more how people may wish the world was than how it actually is – you’re just much better off catering for common events than very rare ones, especially if you only have one pair of shoes (as Simon says, having more than one is probably sensible).

Just as a personal pet peeve, I’m surprised when anyone raises funerals as being a case for any type of dress code. The funerals (and weddings) I’ve attended over the years have had any number of people in mismatched suits, blazers and jeans, tan shoes… it’s just not a thing that a lot of people are strict about conforming to. And quite frankly it’s one of the least important things to be focusing on at a funeral too.

Jan

Maybe I am part of a minority here but I think that there are many occasions in life that are too solemn or celebratory (or both) for brown shoes. Weddings and funerals were an obvious example to make a point (and most people have more than one funeral to attend in life, unfortunately) but I am also thinking a job interview, an important speaking engagement, a black tie event, political meeting, graduation ceremony, court appearance etc etc. If I could only have one pair of really good shoes (and would have to settle with very mediocre for all other days), I would always pick black oxfords for those special occasions. That other people rock up at a funeral “in mismatched suits, blazers and jeans, tan shoes” is unfortunate – I think dressing thoughtfully and solemnly at such occasions is a sign of respect and appreciation for the significance of the event. Not the most important thing in life but brown shoes aren’t either

Luke

Thanks, Simon.

Just a brief follow-up on the big toe issue—do you know whether this is generally a result of having too little clearance, or too much? My intuition says that it probably means not enough clearance, but of course the reality often runs counter to intuition; for example, in the case of heel discomfort resulting from too much room and therefore slippage.

Luke

On the big toe issue, do you have a reccommendation as to someone in London who may be able to stretch the shoe? Or would it be best to take them back to EG for stretching?

Peter Hall

Great comment about wearing them. Good shoes must fit into your lifestyle or will never be worn. One of the things I have discovered from PS is the joy of brown. It’s such a versatile colour.

Chancellor

Thanks to this blog, I learnt to take things slow and focus on essentials with bespoke. I focus my commissions on what feel like holes in my wardrobe—items I repeatedly feel are missing when I’m trying to put together an outfit. I also live with a product for 6-12 months after wards before trying a new commission, even from a different maker—I want to learn the lessons of the past and incorporate them into my next commission.

I’ve purchased a couple of Cleverly shoes, and unfortunately not been that impressed. They get the style very good, but fit has been mediocre, and actually worse on my second shoe. When the pandemic ends, I need them to redo the second one since it’s basically unwearable, so bad is there fit. I see them when they travel, and they have been very resistant to doing more than one fitting, which seems to be part of the problem.

I found your comment on monk shoes interesting—more formal than these oxfords. A gap I most need to fill next is a second dark brown pair of shoes (already have an oxford), formal enough for suits, but more often to be work with odd jackets or knitwear with dark trousers. I was thinking a monk strap would be a style that could bridge those, maybe with a rounder toe to be less flashy. Do you think another choice would be better?

Jan

Dear Chancellor, I suggest you have a look at the Edward Green Fulham. I wear mine at least once a week and find that they work with suits and odd jacket combos equally well. The welt on the apron helps to make it work with more casual stuff

Otávio Silva

What suit are you wearing?

Julius

Great article, as always. What suit are you wearing? The cloth looks lovely. Thanks

Scott

Another top notch article. Prior to becoming a PS reader I made some unfortunate shoe purchases concerning color such as navy and burgundy, big mistake. However, I found a company recommended by Simon that can change the color of shoes. I’ll be sending four or five pair to them over time to change to dark brown. One of the greatest benefits of PS has been acquiring the knowledge that dark brown and black are the best shoe colors as they work with everything. As has been mentioned earlier, the KISS principle really does work.

Sjakie

A bit surprised by your comment about burgundy. A good burgundy color is the modest versatile there is as it goes well with blue/navy as well with greys…Black on the contrary does not go with that many colors imo.

Anonymous

Great article. Where did you get your shoes stretched? I’m finding an issue with rubbing on the top of my big toe on a pair of RTW Cleverly’s.

Anonymous

i have a pair of Armoury shoes that rubbed my small toe on one foot. i attached a folded small piece of cloth to the shoe trees with some elastic and left the trees in for about two weeks. the discomfort disappeared completely, and the shoes did not lose their shape – there is a very tiny bump noticeable if you look very closely, but otherwise the change is not perceivable. the only trick is to identify exactly the spot where the shoe is tight and then (through some trial and error) make sure the piece of cloth is exactly in that spot.

Anthony Wadsworth

Have a look at theilkleyshoecompany.com
They repair shoes and have 2 professional stretching machines.
Excellent reputation and service.
And yes I do work for them.
Anthony.

Thomas

Back in 2007 I was delighted to get a great new job at Lehman Brothers. To celebrate I ordered a pair of bespoke shoes from Stefano Bemer. Stefano (RIP) did all the measurements and fittings, what a wonderful man. 2008 unfortunately wasn’t a great year for me and many others. Anyway the shoes are very similar to your Cleverleys Simon. I typically wear them once a week. I always wear Tote rubber coverings over them if it’s raining, not glamorous I know, but I figure I am the only one who notices when the weather is bad. I take them back to Florence every few years for some TLC but they still have the original soles. I had no doubt I will wear them indefinitely. Probably the article in my wardrobe that I have the most emotional attachment to, for good and bad reasons.

Michael from Connecticut

Simon, nice article…informative and as always written from an open and informed viewpoint. I have had two pairs made by Cleverley. Have never been really satisfied with the fit. A disappointment generally. Of all my shoes the Greens have held up the best…some now more than 30 years old and going strong…a patina that only age and wear can make perfect. The message here is buy the best you can afford, and wear it and keep it well, and it will well serve you.

Anonymous

“If you’re going to have shoes and wear them for a long time, they need to be comfortable. The fit needs to be good. Not just RTW good, but bespoke good.”

Are we to read the above as indicative that only bespoke shoes (or shoes that fit like bespoke, to be precise) are worth owning and wearing for a long time?

I don’t want to be obnoxious, and I don’t think that your intention was to convey the idea that only bespoke shoes are ultimately worthy, but the above quote has me somewhat confused. I would appreciate it if you could kindly clarify it.

Michael K

Wonderful article and all so very true. I think we’ve all made these mistakes, buying too quickly certainly one of them, or too impulsively when something is in the sale. I realize I will trigger many, many people’s prejudices by disclosing this, but, despite having since bought similar black cap toes from C&J and Lobb, for formal business events that require more than an hour or two of wearing, I go back to my Church consuls on the 173 last in plain black calf. They’ve lasted well over a decade, with two resolings, hold a marvelous deep shine with Saphir polish, and fit like a glove. They’re not the most elegant shoe I own, certainly not the ‘best’ by any measure most PS readers go for, but like that special mug or the old badly sprung chair that’s fitted to your shape, they’re my favourite.

Ajbjasus

Slightly off topic, but LACES !

I have some GG Gables, that I have worn to death, but still have the original Lsces, but my lovely EGs need new laces all the time. It’s not the cost but the bloomin’ hassle!

ANM

@AJBJASUS – Ha! I thought you were going to post about the difficulty in actually FINDING laces…Not that long ago, laces, in all their colours and length variety were available in many of places like supermarkets…yet today, even many dedicated dress shoe stores have a limited selection…

I attribute this a lot to the rise of casual shoes being the default choice. They get worn to death, can be relatively inexpensive, and wear out just at the same time the shoes need replacement..

EL

I actually like those double monks much more than the Bemers. The Bemers are much too strongly colored and I am not as big on oxfords (except the kind that can be worn with navy suits) as you are. The double monks may do better on a more casual last, but I think they are far less showy than the Bemers. They seem like they would be good with grey trousers and a sport coat.

Felix

Do you know what’s going on at Foster & Son’s – are they terminating their RTW operations (and factory)? Would be a pity, they have been my favorite producer in the high-end RTW segment.

Paul F

Good article Simon, and very pertinent.
I don’t think the answers to the question “why?” are boring. On the contrary, they are pretty essential to this journey. I’m often asked what my favorite pieces are. The truth is that it is not always the most finely made tailoring but also the most versatile and practical, in my case. There are three jackets that come to mind, all navy blue. Navy fresco Liverano RTW, Navy wollen twill by A&S Bespoke and a navy hopsack DB by Sartoria Ripense.
How fun it would be to start over from scratch the wardrobe but with the knowledge I know have.

Jay

Hi Simon,

Interesting point of view. I always felt that the simpler shoes tend to get the most wear. For instance, I have a pair of black hatchgrain G&G Monaco loafers made and they get the most wear because of its simplicity.

On another note, over the past 10 years, have you gotten a resole, and if so, does it affect the balance / quality / feel of the shoes?

Cheers!

ANM

Alex,

Once again, a great, inciteful, personal article.

I have a practical question…You write:

“So why am I still wearing this pair of Cleverley bespoke shoes, 10 years after I commissioned them? Why do I think I will be for another 20?”

I believe that feet (like ears, and the nose) continue growing throughout our lives….What and how do bespoke shoes accommodate this? Even though leather molds around our feet, there are limits.

Do you anticipate that there will be no issues with these shoes in 20 – 30 years?

ANM

Apologies!

Yes, SIMON…and thank you for the reply!

YR

Hi Simon, great post even though bespoke shoes are probably never within my reach.
Can I ask you something regarding styling though? I noticed you talked about brown double monk shoes, I happen to have one in brown museum calf and with a slightly formal last as well. How casual do you think I can go with these? Would tailored trousers/chinos and sport jacket work with them? Polo shirt even, or a double monk is more limited to suits? Thanks!

Steve

Simon, I like how you are holding bespoke makers to a higher standard of fit. For double or triple the price, fit should matter first.

I made two Cleverley commissions over the past few years, and was surprised how sparsely my feet were measured. Pretty much just a paper outline of the feet and tape of the arch. They were fine, a few snug spots here or there, but I accepted them as if they were RTW. Lesson learned. Later I bought a pair of Yohei Fukuda RTW and they fit better than the Cleverleys, or any other high end shoe, honestly. I don’t know why.

A bespoke foot measurement should take some time and effort, with the opportunity to send back for adjustments. In your position, I am sure that makers are careful to please you — but in the States, meeting fitters in hotel rooms with all the shipping issues back and forth to the UK, etc., I’m afraid the experience is just not the same.

Finally, I wonder if you think bespoke is more important for loafers than oxfords or derbies. Loafers give me the most problems with fit over time.

Thanks!

Richard

Hi Simon,

I hope like me, you are enjoying some of this weekend’s London early Spring sun.

Which of your loafers have proven to be the most useful? I recall an article around 4-years mentioning the G&G seamless light-brown loafers but wondered if thats changed. Looking back is there anything you would change about them?

Nico

Yes, a dark brown quarter brogue is the cornerstone of a dress shoe collection in my opinion. And can be stretched into casual – dress. Surprisingly, I don’ see it offered that much.
I cannot however come to like the ultra- shine caps, and I think they sabotage their versatility across formality levels. I dare predict you will drop that feature going forward.

Stephan

Simon, a great post. Really motivates me to order bespoke shoes – and/or G&G Cambridge!

This brings me to two questions (and a rant):

– What is a starting price for a good bespoke simple Oxford? I’m based in Vienna, so plenty choice I guess.
– Rant and question. One of the key lessons of PS is that a dark brown Oxford is the tailored man’s most versatile shoe. While I get it in theory (colour combos, visual interest, aging, dressing up or down, etc.), I actually haven’t been able to replicate the adage in my life. I end up going back to black shoes for most formal dressing, including at the office whenever I need to dress up for a client meeting or presentation (I work in a big international organisation). My dark gray suits do not go with my brown shoes, especially the one with white/beige stripes and my charcoal. Most dark navies too. I end up wearing brown shoes with lighter gray, patterned navy, and odd combos. Question finally: am I simply not choosing sufficiently dark brown shoes, or are they actually less useful with very dark tailoring in a bureaucratic environment? A subquestion: as I see you pulling brown off with darkest of grays and navies with success – can you recommend some very dark brown Oxfords? Preferably not too expensive as I am experimenting. But given your last point, I actually think it does make sense to invest.

Thanks,

Stephan

Dario

Hi Simon,

After reading the article, and the comments (I hope I didn’t miss it), I was left wondering how much wear did these shoes actually get.
For example, how many times are they used in a week/month? Do you walk a lot on them on the street or are they mostly used in indoors places and cars? Since the leather is more delicate, do you find yourself being more “careful” than usual when wearing them?

Dario

Thank you very much Simon!

Mohammed

Hi simon
I was going through your article and i was wondering if u have any suggestions for selecting formal and casual shoes for dubai weather

Fernando

Hi Simon,
How are the lining in these keeping up? I’ve got some 4 year old Carminas where there are big holes in the lining at the heel. Have you ever had this problem? Is there any solution?

Fernando

Great thanks