I had this overcoat made earlier in the year by Sartoria Ciardi from Naples, but have only had a chance to wear it consistently the past few months. The cloth is CT17 from Fox - a 20/21oz wool in their overcoatings bunch.
I was confident of the style, as it was the same as the taupe ‘British warm’ I had made with Ciardi a few years ago - the original review of that is here.
But I was a little unsure about the cloth. Not the weight or the quality necessarily, but the colour. The weight is light at 20oz, but it felt like it had enough heft. And the quality seemed pleasingly tweedy without actually being a tweed - and so could bridge smart and casual.
Perhaps I should use a word other than ‘quality’, actually. When people in the cloth trade refer to a ‘quality’ they mean a particular type of cloth - a yarn, weave, weight and finish, varying only then in colour or pattern. But of course that’s not how normal people use it, so perhaps I should call it the ‘type’ of cloth. Anyway, the type seemed nice and has proved to be so.
It was the colour that has proved tricky. My thinking was that I didn’t have a grey tailored overcoat, and if there was any hole to fill - in anyone’s wildest definitions of such a thing in my wardrobe - that was it. But I didn’t want a grey herringbone, like our Donegal or English Tweed coats.
This grey twill (the diagonal lines of the weave) looked nice. There was a little brown in the colour mix, the melange, which would add some warmth and make it less formal - good with black and cream jeans, perhaps even dark indigo, and great with all shades of brown.
This subtle design is the kind of thing Fox Brothers are particularly good at, by the way, and is an example of when I’m happy to pay their higher price. It often makes for cloth that’s both interesting and tasteful, and it’s not worth sacrificing that for a couple of hundred quid in saving.
When this coat was made up, however, the grey was a little lighter that I’d expected. It wasn’t hard to find a combination it looked good with - the tonal Scandi one here, all beige and brown, is typical for me and lovely - but it wasn’t that versatile.
With dark suits it stood out too much. With more rural colours like burgundy, forest green or a warmer brown, it was too smart and cold.
Interestingly, my Saman Amel coat (below) is a similar tone but I find it easier to wear, perhaps because it’s completely unstructured and more casual.
I also think the Ciardi is a little harder to wear because the colour makes its dandyish details stand out - the martingale back basically, with its half belt, box pleats and the buttoned vent. The Saman one is plainer.
This experience is the opposite of the Ciardi taupe coat (below). That turned out to be more versatile than I thought, as despite not being a classic navy, grey or charcoal, it worked with a wide range of outfits, including the tell-tale test of black and brown shoes.
The lesson there is probably that how light (in colour) a material is, is more important than whether it’s a slightly unusual colour, like taupe.
I also struggled with button choice on the light-grey coat. My instinct was to avoid contrast, so I initially chose a light-brown horn.
But these stood out too much, so next time Ciardi visited, I had them change them to dark brown. In retrospect this should have been obvious, given I knew how well dark brown worked on the Saman coat.
I guess the lesson is the similar to the one about overall colour - if in doubt go with darker buttons, even if it means higher contrast.
Let’s be clear - I still really like this coat. I wear it quite a lot and really enjoy doing so.
The material (the ‘quality’) is really nice - it is the perfect mix of smart and casual that I hoped. According to Fox, this is typical of west-of-England cloth - hard wearing but with slightly milled finish.
The colour just means that it isn’t something I’d recommend to readers as their first one or two coats. (There is of course a whole article here on making that choice.) It works for me, as I already have lots of more versatile options. But it might not for others so much.
The shoes, by the way, are vintage horsebit loafers (I'd guess from the early 90s). I’m still not sure of the horsebit style, but I picked these up for $40 at the excellent Alfargo’s Market Place in New York, and buying cheap second-hand is a nice way to experiment.
Trying horsebits is evidence of Lucas’s influence, and I do wear a lot of black loafers, particularly with a low vamp. So perhaps these will work out well - they just might be better with a relaxed warm-weather outfit than a wrapped-up winter one. We’ll see.
I don’t find I ever stop learning. I know I dress better than I used to - the trendline is definitely up, even if the data can look a little scattered. And anyway, life would be pretty boring if there were nothing left to learn.
Other clothes shown:
- White Permanent Style oxford button-down shirt
- Fawn Rubato V-neck lambswool sweater
- Brown flannel trousers, Fox cloth, from Whitcomb & Shaftesbury
- Californian model sunglasses, EB Meyrowitz
- Old Ralph Lauren cap
I love vintage clothes, but don’t you find with shoes that a footbed shaped by wear to someone else’s foot renders them useless?
I find it depends a lot on the shoe – its age and its type. Some leather shoes will have a clear foot shape to them, but other lighter ones don’t (like this) and obviously trainers etc don’t as much.
I find I can normally tell as soon as I put them on – whether the shape inside feels too strange or not
Simon speaking of horsebit loafers – check out the ones on George Cleverley and Carmina’s website. Both look a very elegant design Do you feel (as I do) in general horsebit loafers always looks better worn with navy blazer and (grey) flannels rather than a suit given they are more casual/showy than a black oxford or plain (non – adorned) loafer. Speaking of navy blazers and flannels would you wear such an outfit with a plain black oxford shoe or do you feel this is too formal a shoe and therefore always default to a loafer – be it plain, tasseled or horsebit? Thank You.
Those horsebits look a little elongated for me, but I haven’t seen them in person. I think it’s good to not stray too far from the original loafer designs, including the shape.
I know what you mean on what they’re worn with, though I do find they can be nice with a suit too – it just feels like more of a look, more than 80s style. Not just a formality issue
I would wear a black oxford with those things, but I’d be aware that I’d want the overall look to be smart – eg I’d wear a white spread-collar shirt rather than a blue oxford button-down
Interesting – horsebit loafers I love on others but can never make work for me. I think the problem is that I already present as a bit ‘establishment’ in my general appearance, so the horsebits are automatically interpreted as being part of that old school style, rather than the louche rock and roll atmosphere others can conjure. I wonder if there’s an interesting piece in there by the way at some point – understanding how one presents culturally, and thereby how clothes might be chosen to play into or subvert that baseline. I’m thinking of how Drakes for example how often worked with that exceptionally cool model Jason Jules, who brings such verve to a tweed jacket.
Oh and I’m sorry to report the proofreader has been on the mulled wine – missing “colour”, I assume in para 5, and should of course be “hole” not “whole” shortly thereafter.
Thanks Peter, no worries those things have been corrected now!
Yes, I do think that’s an interesting topic for some point. Lucas, interestingly, probably looks quite establishment, but leans into the look well
I would love that article.
Hi Simon – I like the colour. Do you have more detail on the coat? Lining/ fit across the shoulders/ wearing a suit underneath etc… and also cost?
Hey Vik – cost is €5000 plus cloth. Lining is grey (I usually go tonal) and it’s cut to fit comfortably over a suit, so is just a touch roomier over a knit.
Let me know if you have any other questions
Do you ever find it hard to wear a heavy coat on top of a British suit?
I have a long, winter coat that’s quite heavy and, when I wear that with a heavily padded jacket I have (made at Graham Browne), I find it overall “weighs” a lot on my shoulders, if that makes sense.
Would it be helpful to wear Neapolitan tailoring instead?
Cheers
I don’t find it too much usually, but if you do then a softer make would make a difference, yes. Bear in mind that the material and the length will be just as important in terms of the weight though
That is perfect! Thank you!
Good post-match commentary, (I was going to say post-mortem, but thought better of it.) I have four “proper” overcoats and only wear one of them. This seems to be because I only wear them with suits, and I only relatively rarely wear a suit with an overcoat. I am quite firmly of the view that dark grey is underrated in the formal overcoat department, and that’s the one I wear. I also have a light grey one which I never wear at all, a black one which makes me look like an undertaker, and a covert one will I will never wear again until Nigel Farage dies.
Anyway, it seems to me that the potential use case of { + } is pretty sparse. I quite fancy one like your Saman Amel though, even if it might need a small white dog and a drunken sea captain to round it off.
Hahaha, you made my day with you comment about the covert cloth coat. 🙂 Thumbs up.
Could you say more on why you didn’t want the PS versions of the grey overcoat and went bespoke instead? Was it that you wanted a more formal cloth than grey herringbone, or was it a matter of style?
It was a matter of style – I wanted something a little more smarter and also less everyday. So I wanted something bespoke and tailored for that
Hello Simon
I have recently been introduced to PS by a friend, and am really enjoying reading and being educated your extensive archive.
Whilst I like the Ciardi coat, the Amel is my real favourite. It manages to my eye to be very stylish without being too formal.
One thing that jumps out though is the “British Warm” reference here and in the older Ciardi post. The name actually refers to a particular specific style of overcoat, rather than to a colour or cloth, and so I am a little surprised to see it mentioned here.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks Joseph.
Yes it does refer to a style, but the cloth and it’s colour were quite specific as well I think, which is why people sometimes produce cloths and give it that name
There’s a lot to be said for using cheap second hand to try things out before committing – I’ve done this with opera pumps – a style I wasn’t sure about and didn’t want to spend big on something I wasn’t sure I would wear. As it turned out I ended up loving them and upgraded to new pumps once I knew what style/colour I would use the most and then sold on the vintage ones I’d purchased for pretty much what I’d originally paid. I do this more and more now, particularly with the rise in prices of quality items.
Interesting, thanks James
This looks like a very stylish coat but I can see why the light colour makes it less versatile. It’s further evidence that any colour and pattern will usually look bolder when made into a garment than it does on a small swatch.
With the exception of darker colours like navy and charcoal, I find that overcoat colours work differently to suit, jacket and trouser colours. Light grey is great for trousers but not so versatile for overcoats, whereas taupe and fawn make far more versatile overcoats than they do jackets or trousers.
Hi Simon,
The coat looks good on you, do however think taupe is a slightly better colour for the style. I think the would look sumptuous in a balmacaan style. Just on the point of calling it a British Warm style, I tend the view that this is more associated with a sorter military style. An example being RTW version by Cordings – link below.
https://www.cordings.co.uk/british-warm-overcoat.html
Yes it is Stephen, but people often make cloth that is like the cloth in that style of coat, hence using the name
Simon, frankly I think recent designs, particularly from yourself, have usurped this type of style.q
Do you think so David? How about my B&Tailor one, that’s a little more subtle but also in a darker colour?
No, honestly I think it’s done.
The elaborate back, belting etc renders it very passé.
I’m currently wearing my PS Donegal to death (V1) and am loving it.
Thanks David
The fabric is fantastic, the coat is great. It has the right amount of dandy spirit in it. I like it more than the coat from Saman Amel. My only issue with the colour is that such colours look best in daylight which in winter would mean until roughly 16 O’Clock. In the evening I would rather pick a darker coat.
How do you feel generally about loafers during winter? I only keep my black pair in my “winter rotation,” but you have such an eye and are so thoughtful that I thought I’d ask.
I don’t mind them at all to be honest, unless it’s actually raining or slushy etc
Thanks, Simon!
Even if there’s no rain or snow, loafers in the Winter seem fragile, not up to the task.
They don’t pair well with Winter. Ha, ha!
Of course, I’m in the Northeastern US.
That said, the outfit’s very nice.
Thanks. Personally I think it’s a question of practicality – shoes and other clothes like them only look out of place when they’re clearly impractical. If it’s not raining or snowing, so you’re walking dry pavements in a city and your feet don’t get cold (mine are always too hot) then I don’t think it looks impractical
Simon, I’ve solved the riddle!
This Sunday in London, you’ll have a low of 42 degrees F., while Boston will have a low of 12 degrees F.
Enjoy loafering about.
Out of curiosity, what type of soles do you use with your loafers in London in winter? Can leather still work or do you rather switch to rubber/Dainite ones?
Leather’s fine most of the time
Another beautiful shot of the brown flannels! I think this article has really convinced me to get a third pair of brown flannels after my vbc charcoal and hardy minnis gray! (Sorry if im digressing here)
Cost of the coat please?
Sorry, €5000 plus fabric
Compared to an off the peg coat from Kiton or Brioni the price seems reasonable. Can you suggest any lower cost bespoke Italian coat makers?
Certainly. Any of the bespoke makers in our list here would be a good shout – not many will be cheaper but someone like Solito would be, though not making to the same level
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I find these kind of articles really helpful! To select the right cloth for a bespoke commision shure is a challenge – especially when choosing based on a small swatch (and not a full bale of cloth)! A good rule of thumb that I learned from a tailor is that the cloth will often look slightly lighter when made up (in other words the swatch will look slightly darker than the finished garnment). Also really interesting to hear your thoughts about the level of versatility and garnment pairings – that is only really “judgeable” post hoc (after the garnment is finished).
Yes exactly. And yes that is a good rule of thumb, particularly with big expanses of material like this, and with ones that are already a mid-tone or lighter
I love the coat, in it’s color and construction. I think my personal bias against this particular shade of coat is mainly how prevalent it is in fast fashion. Most coats I see on the average person in the street are thin, a little sloppy, and are mostly in light grey or black. Of course when constructed and made in this manner, it steps up more than a couple of notches, but I do understand the slight difficulty in styling it.
Simon,
How did you settle on black socks with this outfit given the brown trousers – was it because the loafers have a low vamp and thus better to match the black shoe to elongate the foot than to do so with the leg with a brown sock?
Andrew
Good point. It was actually because sometimes browns can be hard to match well, as the tones can be quite different. I couldn’t find a brown pair that day that matched well.
Hi Simon, do you line the breast pocket with something in particular to help protect and clean your shades? I also put my shades in that pocket sometimes but haven’t ever done this.
No I don’t
Wow, Simon. What a lovely overcoat. The colour and the details are beautiful Very stylish.
How very English though , to wear loafers in winter. You know, Europeans laugh at us for wearing inappropriate footwear: high boots in summer, strappies in winter. Oh well, tradition dies hard I suppose. Carry on…!
Not sure how much I care what they think! They don’t feel out of place to me if it’s not raining or too cold to wear them
Indeed, I can confirm that at least for the German-speaking countries. Loafers are considered summer shoes, and so are to an extent leather soles.
I just sold a light grey coat from with similar details for similar reasons. I’ve kind of got to the point with my clothes now, where I prefer almost everything pretty dark – if it’s not a shirt, chinos, white jeans or a t-shirt, I prefer darker colours.
I do wonder if this is partly down to the weather in the UK this last year being so overcast and damp
As for Vienna, I’ve read from time to time as styling advice from bloggers for tourists – who don’t want to look like tourists – to wear dark colours in winter. And indeed, when I walk around the city, most Viennese are dressed in charcoal, dark-grey or even black coats (navy doesn’t seem to be as popular as in England).
Simon, I’ve noticed that you almost always turn your collar up when you wear coats (so much so that there isn’t a single photo of your bridge coat with the collar down on the shop page).
I may be wrong, but I suspect that most PS readers wear their collars down most of the time, which gives the coat a different – more formal – feel. This could be the reason why some readers think that overcoats, especially double-breasted coats, are becoming somewhat outdated.
Thanks Markus.
The Bridge Coat is an exception – I wouldn’t really ever wear the collar down myself. But other DB overcoats like this I often do so, though more often when they are unbuttoned.
I’m not sure you’re necessarily right about readers, I’d say it’s about 50:50 if I think about what I saw in the recent pop-ups
Simon,
Do you prefer overcoats with 1/2 belt and back pleating when you plan to use casually?
best,
Robert
No. For a casual coat I’d likely remove some of those details
I’ve noticed a few copy errors in recent articles, from different authors. As a loyal PS reader for a decade now it would be my pleasure to proof-read the articles (for free of course) as a small way of giving back. Let me know if you’d be interested Simon!
Thank you, that’s very kind. We don’t really have time for that I’m afraid, the little errors are usually a result of me rewriting and rewriting about 5m before publication, I need to restrain myself!
What size of Rubato v-neck sweater do you wear? Cheers
Medium
Hey Simon,
Do you find the v neck shorter than their crewnecks? I have two and it’s consistent with both of them, being about 3cm shorter than the crewnecks they own. I saw a post of yours saying they had lengthened them but I was assured mine were new stock.
I haven’t found that, no
Lovely color and coat, although I personally prefer a clean back without the pleats, belt etc.
Btw I noticed the word ‘colour’ is missing “It was the that has proved tricky. “
Thanks, that’s corrected.
Yes it’s interesting how people have started to trend away from those sartorial details
Hello Simon, you wrote that the colour that you picked was lighter than expected. As a result different to wear. Even with your experience with bespoke, things like that happen. My own experience is that it often turned out different than I thought it would. Fabrics, weight, colour, fit… As a result I prefer to wear rtw. What is your opinion about that? Thanks very much.
I think that can be frustrating and I understand why people might stick to RTW. But I do think its quite easy to mitigate these issues, eg:
– Only choose cloths you have already seen made up. Ideally in person, but at least online.
– Always go safe with bespoke. Darker, plainer, simpler. You’ll rarely regret it.
– If you’re doing that with the material, find interest instead in details like cuffs or something, as they can always be changed. The material cannot.
Hi Simon,
Would you say it is more important to see it made up in a picture than seeing a swatch in person? The picture introduces many other variables (natural or artificial lighting, and any other type of filter/postprocessing) that can make it look a bit different.
True, I would want to see both those things, not one or the other
While it might seem limited now this might be one of those items that you look at in a five years and see it in a completely new light. As your own and general taste and style evolves you might get inspired with new and unexpected looks.
I’d also like to say that I don’t agree that the details present on this coat are on their way out. I feel they are as actual now as they have ever been. In fact I find ulster / polo coat design as one of the easiest proper tailoring items to wear and suitable for pretty much any walk of life because you can so easily dress it down or up. Of course good design execution and cloth choices are critical. Taupe Ciardi or Liverano are very wearable and in navy or dark grey even more so.
Thanks m.
You might be right, let’s see.
One thing that struck me since writing this was that it’s harder to wear given I like darker things elsewhere so much more. Bruce Boyer dropped me a note to say he had the same coat, but in the image he showed he was wearing it with taupe trousers and snuff shoes. That’s not a combination I wear much
Really like everything here, the light grey works very nicely and gives something fresh and optimistic. But more than anything else, this is the cut which is really beautiful…
Great article; I think we learn more from our “mistakes” (or reading about others’) than anything else. That said though it’s a beautiful coat, stunning really.
My first ever bespoke commission is lovely, but it’s a dark gray jacket that almost looks brown in certain light, and it has been murder to pair with anything other than navy or dark green trousers. How I neglected to consider versatility is beyond me.
And horsebit loafers might be one of my least favorite shoe styles ever, so with that bias, I have no comment on that portion of the piece.
The cost of this coat made my eyes water, but many of your readers obviously can easily afford something like that.
You may not want to respond, but I think many readers would be curious how much you spend per annum to review these pieces.
Obviously, the costs would be a business expense, but it would be interesting to get an idea of your annual budget for these reviews
I wouldn’t say many readers can easily afford it, but I’d say a significant minority can afford it when clothes are a priority for them – something they take more joy in and interest in.
I’m not going to list a budget like that to be honest, I can see how people might find it interesting but I don’t think it would be useful in any way
Good morning everyone….the coat looks fabulous but then again you are one of the best dressed persons in the world…..your last paragraph says it all..it gets a BRAVO!!!!!!!
Thanks Kenneth, always looking for one of those!
hi Simon
The coat looks really great, though I would agree it is one one of the first overcoats one should order. Rather than the color, I think it is the details (matingale, “pieghone”, ulster collar) that make it harder to wear. I have three tailor made overcoats – I blue DB wool cashmere that I use all the time, a SB covert coat that is also super easy to wear, and a Camelhair Ulster that I rarely wear.
As lovely as that coat is, the fact that I decided to go for all of the Ulster details (10 buttons, post box pockets, pieghone, martigale) make it very difficult to wear. The light color is actually pretty easy, but the details make it too much of a look to wear very often. I find that it works worst in the way that I intended, which is in the winter with a flannel suit as I look too much like an illustration from Apparel Arts. It works best worn open with otherwise casual clothes.
Best, Andrew
Simon, I really enjoy these articles and the responses they get. You mentioned “low vamp” shoes. Who is making them these days? Thanks in advance for your advice.
Not many people unfortunately Jay. Belgian loafers are like that – and all the different people that make versions of them – so that’s an option. Bally sometimes offer some. The Alden full-strap loafer has a nice low vamp
The armoury “Hudson” and “Greenwich” loafers from their in house line have a low vamp. Cheers.
Ah yes of course, you’re right. Thank you Gonis
Did the 20oz fabric keep you warm. We have had some really bitterly cold days in London in January 2025. I’m about to commission a new coat 22.5oz camelhair using a fabric from Standeven. Just wondering if the Camelhair would do the job as it only a couple of ounces heavier than the 20oz. I also commissioned a 27oz (navy twill) DB coat couple of years ago using a fabric from Holland & Sherry which does an excellent job in keeping me warm.
I don’t think you’d notice much difference between the 20 and the 22. But I find I just layer more – base layer underneath a shirt and a knit, big scarf and hat on top
But did the 20oz keep you warm with a shirt and knit underneath.
Most of the time, yes