Knitwear and necklines – with Ciardi overcoat in ‘British Warm’
My love of bespoke overcoats continues unabated: the thing I was most excited about this Autumn was the prospect of wearing them again.
It's annoying that, useful as they are (and arguably today, more useful than a bespoke suit) they are limited to the colder months of the year. Perhaps I just need to develop an equally strong love of linen trousers; then I'd never be unhappy.
The coat I was particularly looking forward to wearing was this new one, from Sartoria Ciardi in Naples.
It was made earlier in the year, but due to some poor planning, only got worn a couple of times before the weather was too warm - and it had to be carefully packed away in the attic.
It is rather a warm coat, being made in 850g wool from Holland & Sherry. It's from their Contemporary Overcoatings bunch (code 9819306) which has some pretty wild things in it, but also this and a few lovely herringbones.
The cloth is their recreation of the 'British Warm' - a style and fabric that was worn as a great coat by British officers during the First World War. (Though not a melton, as it is often described.) It was later made popular by Winston Churchill.
It is at the heavier end of the range for overcoats, and yet, I rarely feel hot in it. During the visit to Stockholm pictured, temperatures topped out at 16 degrees (celsius). Yet I was not hot.
I wore it open except in the chilly mornings and evenings, and thanks to its beautiful bespoke shape, it still looked good, draping rather than just hanging.
That perhaps comes across in some of the images, such as the one below.
The cloth has a beautiful hand. It's wool - no cashmere in there - but soft and tightly woven. An attractive combination of pleasure and practicality, perhaps.
The colour is probably best described as taupe: a greyed, warm brown. It's not formal enough for the smartest business attire, really, but certainly for anything other than that.
And it has a feeling in common with the camel colours of a polo coat - that it could be thrown on with knitwear and jeans at the weekend, yet be smart with a blazer and trousers too.
That's how I was wearing it here, when we shot in Stockholm with Oliver and Carl of Rubato (shown above - article on their newest things soon) on a walk around Sodermalm.
The jeans are from Boncuore/Drake's, from a few years back, and have a nice creamy (rather than stark/optical) white that it's not always easy to find. The boots are my suede Saint Crispin’s.
On top is a dark-grey cashmere crewneck from Colhay's, with a white T-shirt showing significantly over the neckline.
I say significantly because this strip of white is a very effective way of freshening the look, making whatever is underneath sit better against the face.
If there is a colour that isn't quite so flattering on you, but looks great otherwise (as this grey is on me) then that strip is very helpful.
It's nothing new, but is a little point that men who wear a lot of crewnecks could do well to pay attention to. That no-shirt look might be rather more complimentary as a result.
Of course, the problem is you then need a T-shirt with a sufficiently high (at least at the front) neckline to keep consistently above the knitwear. This one is from Warehouse (via Clutch Cafe) but is a little thick for an underlayer.
While I do then like the look of this knit under a coat with the collar down (as above), I still prefer it with the collar up.
There is some attitude to wearing the collar like this, and a little more relaxed air, which is often helpful with tailoring. I would be more likely to wear the collar down if I were in a suit and tie.
Shrugging on the coat as you leave a restaurant, popping the collar, and then buttoning it, is also very satisfying. Like being given a sculpted heavy-wool hug (from behind).
One disadvantage to this combination of crewneck and overcoat is that the neck can look a little bare. When I'm concerned about this (as I might be with a smaller-collared coat, such as my Ettore de Cesare topcoat) I would wear a scarf loose around the neck as well.
A dark brown washed cashmere would have looked nice here.
That height of the collar was the only thing I tweaked to Ciardi's normal style of Ulster coat.
The Ulster is a particularly popular style in Naples, and most tailors have their version of it. You can see me wearing Panico's 20-year-old version here. (There's also an article coming in a couple of weeks on the various styles of coat.)
Ciardi's has the normal horizontal gorge, making it easier to wrap the coat around the throat, plus the turn-back cuff and buttoned vent at the back. There is the (non-functional) buttoned half belt and swelled edges created by the (fairly standard Neapolitan) double rows of hand stitching.
Stylistically the only choice, really, was to have postbox pockets rather than the more standard patches (something I’ve liked ever since my navy Cifonelli coat). And then that collar, which I requested to be raised a little to better suit my neck height.
Interestingly, English and French makers tend to have a two-piece collar - with a stand and then the actual collar folding over the top. And ready-made coats often have a crescent-shaped insert in the back. But the Neapolitan collar is usually just one piece.
Regular readers will note that this coat is a little similar to the one I had made by Whitcomb & Shaftesbury last year - both in general style and in colour.
It is, but there were some mistakes made by both sides in that commission (covered a little here) and I was keen to try a Neapolitan Ulster - for some completeness on PS as much as for a replacement on the Whitcomb commission.
I’ll likely write more about my reflections on that some other time, as I have done in Reflections on Bespoke posts.
The coat cost £4800 (including VAT), which is also Ciardi's starting price for an Ulster coat.
Photography: Milad Abedi
Lovely coat Simon! how would you compare this colour with camel hair? Would the taupe be more versatile or is it just personal preference. Many thanks
I think it would be similarly versatile in terms of the other things it could go with, but it would be less showy/striking as a colour, so subtler in style
Lovely coat Simon. I am surprised that you advocate having a t shirt showing above a crewneck. This has always looked messy to me, perhaps giving the impression that the wearer has given no consideration to their appearance. To my mind a crew cut worn with a scarf, but no t shirt showing, is a far more elegantly casual way to frame the face. But as with all things I suppose it just comes down to our personal habits and preferences.
I think, personally, that if the T-shirt looks neat then it works well and doesn’t look messy.
I guess the issue with a scarf would be that you only get that look when outside, not in. Unless you mean a short, Ascot-like scarf tucked into the crewneck.
What a beautiful coat! The style reminds me a little bit of a long version of your PS Bridge Coat, maybe you should consider doing a long version of the Bridge Coat? 🙂
I think that would be more similar to a great coat – like my Edward Sexton one?
In some sense yes, but I think the back of the Edward Sexton one is a little bit “strange” and in general that coat feels much more formal than the Bridge Coat (which I personally use more like a Peacoat) and this coat from Ciardi. So from my perspective I’d very much prefer a merge of this Ciardi coat and the Bridge Coat.
OK, thanks. Yes, the back of the Sexton coat is completely different, but the front is pretty close to a great coat
Thanks for an interesting article. I’m interested to see how it compares with the Whitcomb after the buttons were added, but I can’t seem to find a picture. Can you point me to one- sorry if I’ve missed it.
On another note, have you thought about an article on how to combine dressing properly with cycling (without just having to change completely on arrival)?
Sorry, no I haven’t posted a picture of that before. I can do at some point soon.
On cycling, no I haven’t, primarily because my cycle has always been far enough (20m+) that I wouldn’t really do it in clothes I wanted to wear at the other end. If you’re in Milan or Stockholm, maybe, or live in central London, but otherwise I would always change.
While I could not provide an article about clothes and cycling, I can provide a few tips, as I regularly use the bike to work.
First thing is to ensure that your saddle is not abrasive (I use a smooth leather saddle by Brooks, almost everything else will kill your trousers quickly) and that you are sitting reasonably relaxed. Fenders help.
Second thing is fit. I already check at the tailor whether I can move into biking position. Skinny trousers are a no-go, but you will be surprised how comfortable slightly wider trousers can be, tapered somewhat to not interfere with the chain.
Third is layering (over your suit). Coats will have to be short. Pea coats and car coats work well, as do down jackets. I often wear a thin down vest with a high collar under the jacket (have had it made for me) that I can remove at the office. Add knitted headwear and scarf.
And finally: slow down (or use an ebike) and enjoy your ride.
W&S posted on on their instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/CFro5Kisr42/
Aha, yes good point. Thanks Hugh
Do the two pleats down the back play a role in allowing the coat to transition better between wearing a jacket underneath or not? Or is it purely to ease movement?
Yes they do. Obviously they don’t effect how much space there is in the waist, but they do mean the back and shoulders can be a little bigger
I’m so jealous of you overcoat collection at this point! I wonder if there is one that you tend to wear more than the others?
Coincidentally, I made myself a overcoat over lockdown in linen that I have been able to wear on even the hottest days, which has stretched even into October. In a heavy enough weight, I’ve found it to be useful if you are looking for one to wear in the spring/summer?
The one I definitely wear the most is my navy Cifonelli. Always has been. But that’s at least half the colour and fabric
To be honest the idea of a linen coat sounds a little incongruous, but I guess I’d have to see it.
Dear Simon
Speaking about the cloth: Can you compare it with Fox Brothers Fox Geat Coat C217 R2048/3.11, which was produced for the soldiers in WW1?
Best, Marco
I’m afraid not Marco, I’ve never seen that in anything other than a swatch.
I think it’s likely, though, that the H&S version is slightly more modern, in using a more luxurious wool – a Nigel Cabourn faithful update on the original, rather than a Real McCoy’s straight reproduction, if that makes sense.
Hi Simon, wonderful coat. Maybe even nicer than your Liverano in my eyes.
You mentioned that you had the collar raised to accommodate your neck height. Is this quite a straight forward thing to do & communicate with a tailor? I can imagine it on a jacket or SB/DB coat, but I struggle to visualise how it would work on an ulster due to how it travels further down at the back/sides of the neck.
Yes Ollie, it’s pretty straightforward. Just something to ask for at the first fitting, or even raise as a concern at the start.
Oh good, so it’s not as complex as I thought.
Which coat do you personally prefer out of your Liverano & Ciardi design-wise?
I wouldn’t say I prefer either to be honest – I love both, they’re just slightly different in their style and cut
Beautiful coat. Great detailing at the sleeve cuffs, waist pockets, back vent. Just lovely. Any lining or not required for such a coat ?
Yes, full lining. I don’t know why you wouldn’t really – it’s so much easier to wear, and to get on and off. And you’re hardly looking to stay cool
So are those jeans from Boncuore or Drake’s?
Both – it was a design Drake’s was selling, made by Boncoure
I believe it’s Boncoura, a play on the French “bon courage” and the Japanese “bonkura” (simpleton).
Thank you, sorry for the misspelling
There are plenty of quality overcoats on eBay.
Just get a traditional British Warm in Crombie cloth from somewhere like Dunn&co. Peaked lapel versions are best.
Then with the money you save you can maybe buy something like a good used motor car or just put the cash away for a rainy day.
Those are very nice coats, but it’s really not accurate to compare them to this. Nothing you’re looking at will either be made in the same way (hand padded, hand sewn) or fitted in the same way (bespoke, to every contour).
A better comparison is probably comparing those eBay finds to something new RTW from a designer brand, such as Brioni or Ralph Lauren PL
Hi Simon,
Much like your suit series, could you do a breakdown or comparison piece for all the overcoats that you have commissioned over the years?
Yes, I was thinking about as I wrote this actually. I don’t really have the same spread of commissions unfortunately – not really any classic English coats
Nice coat! I wouldn’t have picked taupe but it looks lovely.
I’m interested in how you’d compare this to your Liverano. This looks more relaxed in structure but that could easily be the result of the multiple pictures with it being worn open over a crew neck and t-shirt.
Either way, this is a lovely coat and the colour gives me some thoughts for a future order, so many thanks!
No worries. Yes I would say it was more relaxed – not a lot, not as much as the difference you see in suits/jackets, but it’s a little more natural through the shoulder, a little more relaxed elsewhere
I love everything about this coat apart from the price obviously (as it out of my league) Great colour, weight for British winter, chic, subtlety different without being too shouty, great length and its reminds me of this Instagramer’s coat https://www.instagram.com/p/BPdgW5XAmEq/?igshid=uoxritadm8pe
Yes that’s a Solito overcoat, so the construction and style will be similar
Simon,
Why would you not go with Solito for this?
Probably a little cheaper and you get to liaise with the great Luigi…
I love Luigi, but in general Ciardi is of a higher quality
Can you comment on the differences in construction between this and the W&S coat and how those affect the levels of formality they can sit on top of?
And how would I describe the ciardi type construction to a tailor? Extremely soft, natural shoulder with set in shoulder?
The difference in structure doesn’t make as much difference here, because of the weight of cloth you’re working with. Certainly in terms of the canvas, and probably the shoulder padding.
However it does make a difference in terms of the sleevehead – this is a spalla camicia (sleeve sewn under the shoulder) and very natural, with no roping at all. With another tailor, if you ask for a very natural shoulder then that will be most of the battle. You could also show the complete lack of rope in the sleevehead here, and spalla camicia, if you want.
It’s interesting to note that my immediate reaction to the collar-down shot was ‘ah, now that looks less flattering’, only to then find your acknowledgement of this in the following paragraph. I’m sure with a shirt as you say – and have long preached – it would look excellent in the collar down mode. Incidentally, pretty much every collared piece of RTW outerwear I own looks better with the collar popped, to the point that it sometimes feels a little restrictive…
In any case, a lovely piece and wonderfully styled here. Is this your first overcoat with a Neapolitan shoulder? I feel like I haven’t seen a proper discussion of this kind of construction for outerwear on Permanent Style – maybe I missed an early piece on the subject? – at least not in the same depth as for sports jackets and suits. Would be interesting to read where this fits on the spectrum of coat styles, and whether it could/should be the default choice as for jackets.
For the record, I think the Whitcomb & Shaftesbury belted coat was a thing of absolute beauty, and I’m willing to start a movement in recognition of this. Justice for W&SBC! Yeah the slogan needs work…
Good point on the shoulder. I haven’t really covered it because the shoulder expressions between tailors don’t vary as much as they do with suits, but it is worth looking into at some point nonetheless
It’s a great coat, of course, but worn without a jacket, it kind of swallows up the rest of the outfit. Part of it is just the unfulfilled expectation of an intermediary layer between the heavy coat and the light sweater. Part of it’s the generous cut. Part of it’s the coat’s stateliness contrasting the sweater’s nonchalance. Without a jacket, a trimmer single-breasted cut above the knee would be my go-to: something like your Vergallo loden.
Do you think that such a fabric or the FOX’S GREAT COAT
CODE: C217 R2048/3.11 , would be suitable for a a trimmer single-breasted cut above the knee coat ? Thanks.
Yes, I think that would be nice. It wouldn’t be that dissimilar to the look of a covert coat.
Though do go for knee length if you can – it’s so much more flattering (and you can always have it shortened later).
Thank you for your reply. Do you think such a heavy fabric could word for a mild winter or would it be unwearable and too heavy heavy ? Thanks.
It’s really hard to say, as it depends how cold you get, what you mean by mild etc. But in general I’d say that yes, it could be too heavy. It wouldn’t be the one coat you’d want to wear all through autumn and winter
Hi
I really like the crew neck with t shirt. Crew neck looks great, both colour and fit. Have you gone with small or medium? I can’t see the dark grey colour on Colhay’s current offering unfortunately. Any other recommendations for a high neck T-shirt other than warehouse?
Thanks malcolm
I went with a medium (40), though could also wear the large (42). They are a little small/slim.
The colour I’m wearing is their normal grey melange – https://colhays.com/collections/cashmere/products/cashmere-crew-neck-in-grey-melange
No, I haven’t found any other high-neck options, but let me know if you see anything.
I am always comfortable with a good quality Henley under a crew. Ralph Lauren have a version which buttons high and is snug against the neck(although I have a prop forwards neck)
I’ve been looking forward to overcoat season for a while. Personal opinion but I seem to enjoy your overcoat posts the most – and I’m especially pleased that this overcoat has a lot in common with mine. Despite all the fashion blogs universally saying that double breasted coats look better when buttoned, I think a properly fitted double breasted coat can look very good when worn open – more so than a single breasted coat, even.
The one thing I really agree with you on is how a bespoke overcoat is in many ways more practical than a bespoke suit. I get far more wear out of my overcoat than suits or sport jackets – partly because of the climate and because I don’t get many chances to wear a suit. A long overcoat feels like the last remnant of formal clothing (ie white tie or morning dress) that doesn’t look anachronistic.
Hi Simon,
I share your appreciation of the bespoke coat, although at the moment I have only one – an Ulster by W&S in a navy herringbone that is, I think, my favourite bespoke item. I absolutely love it. I have every intention of commissioning another when I’m finally able to travel and arrange an appointment. Coincidentally, this cloth is a major contender, along with a taupe herringbone by Fox, so it’s good to see it made up like this. I dislike camel; for me it’s too showy especially as a polo coat (though I dislike the style of polo coats, anyway). Taupe is a favourite colour of mine and, I think, very flexible.
I like the t-shirt with crew necked pullover look and employ it myself occasionally, when I feel very casual and don’t want to wear a shirt. It definitely requires an appropriately high necked t-shirt, though. The jury is out as to whether or not it works with this coat, for me. I keep changing my mind! I think that it would certainly work with something slightly more casual, like a pea coat or a Raglan, but the Ulster is just the wrong side of the smart/casual line, perhaps.
I’ve really struggled to find suitable t-shirts, with a sufficiently high neck, for quite a while, so I’m keen to try the Warehouse ones. Herring shoes (in Devon) used to sell quite good own-branded ones, but last time I looked seemed to have discontinued them.
I also find it difficult to find crew necked pullovers with a good neckline. Most are too low for my liking (Trunk’s shetlands are an exception). Any suggestions for other makers gratefully received!
Colhay’s has a slightly higher neckline, and most Shetlands do. There’s actually an article coming on this…
I think this coat is too long for wearing it in such casual style .
Thanks Timofey. Personally I think it’s more of a style choice, and in a material like this doesn’t look too formal. But it’s very much a question of personal style, and perhaps proportions too – it’s easier to wear length if you’re tall and fairly slim
Nice coat. What alternative colour would you choose for this commission Simon if it wasn’t taupe?
Navy would always be my first choice, followed probably by a mid-grey herringbone
I must agree that this coat would look much better with a shirt or a scarf. And I’m not a big fan of the postbox pockets, they look slightly gimmicky to me, a bit too much going on there.
But a very nice coat overall and I certainly envy you the ability to wear it with a sweater when there’s 16 degrees outside. In that temperature, anything more than a shirt and a jacket and I’m boiling.
Thanks. Interestingly, I think I’ve become more sensitive to the cold over time. I wonder whether it’s my brain seeking out every opportunity for more weight and/or accessories
Beautiful coat, Simon. I’m an attorney in the US and my ‘smart’ suits in the winter primarily consist of more textured fabrics like flannels and heavier high twists, mostly worn with suede shoes or tassels and cashmere or grenadine ties (the more informal end of suiting with no sleek worsteds). I already have a charcoal wool/cashmere great coat and have been looking toward another bespoke option to add to the rotation for business trips to the US east coast. This fabric looks very subtle and muted, do you think it would hold up to those more informal suiting scenarios? Thanks.
Yes, it would certainly have the informal side working OK. A navy would probably be the most useful of all, and fine with all those suits, but not so casual on other occasions.
Wouldnt you get more wear outside (easier to match) if it was dark/ chocolate brown?
That would potentially be a little easier, yes. The only down side of dark brown is it’s not easy with dark brown hats or dark brown shoes.
The most versatile colour of all is probably navy though, and perhaps with a mid-grey herringbone as the next
Navy would be good but its more a business colour.
Do you really think a dark brown coat like this wouldnt go with brown suede boots?
It is, though in a wool and with a little pattern, like a herringbone, it doesn’t have to be that smart or corporate.
I wouldn’t say a dark-brown coat couldn’t go with brown suede boots, it just makes it a little trickier. For example, it would be nice if they were slightly different shades, and I’d worry more about having other brown accessories.
I stopped putting belts on the back of my coats. I liked the look but when I was seated against a chair, or if in a car driving with the coat on, I found I could feel the belt and buttons and it was uncomfortable. Of course you can take the coat off when seated, but when it is cold I want to keep my coat on especially when driving. Has anyone else noticed this issue?
I haven’t, but you can have a simple strip sewn on – so no buttons and just one layer of cloth – if that’s more comfortable. A laid-on belt it is often called, and it’s what I have on my Cifonelli coat
Simon, That fabric is fantastic and I like the double breasted look. However, I’ve never liked the belted design with the pleats etc in the back. Would a simpler design for the back without the pleats and belt work well in your opinion?
Yes Scott, certainly. I would still recommend a belt, as otherwise the back can look a little too bare, shaped and feminine. But you can just have a single strip, laid on, and without the pleats or a reduced number
Simon on wearing undershirts beneath knitwear, what do you suggest wearing beneath a turtleneck? I assume that you’d agree wearing a shirt is impossible? I have seen it done with the collars upturned and sticking out, usually in fashion type photo shoots, but I think its most odd, so we are left with either wearing nothing or a T shirt? I assume there is nothing you can do about abrasion with facial and neck hair and the top of the turtle neck which is always going to be against bare skin?
Yes, I would always wear a T-shirt.
That flipped-up collar style partly came from a desire to have something that sat between the knitwear and the skin, but the result is very stylised, as you say.
I’m afraid there are no other real options if you find a roll neck uncomfortable. Unless it’s a heavy one, in which case a lightweight shirt can be OK, not distorting the neck of the knit
Hey Simon,
Beautiful overcoat. I must say that I like the whole outfit and find that in winter this type of combination is what I find myself wearing more often than not.
I have been toying with the idea of buying some cream jeans for a while and love Blackhorse Lane’s E5 cut. I know they do a version in ecru denim, but being based in Australia I can’t visit them and get a sense of where these jeans sit on the cream / white spectrum. Can you please help and can you also comment on the versatility of lighter shades of denim?
Hi Tim,
Thank you very much. The cream jeans from Blackhorse Lane are pretty good when it comes to the white/cream spectrum – certainly more cream than white, hence why they call them ecru I think. A good option.
In terms of the versatility of jeans like this, I find they’re very useful in one sense, in that cream goes with every possible colour of knitwear and jacket. On the other hand, they are more unusual than regular jeans and can seem a little showy to some people. It helps if it’s a bright day (any time of year).
Or did you mean lighter shades of blue as well?
Best
Simon
Thanks Simon… no, you answered perfectly. Very helpful and keep up the good work. I’ve very much enjoyed reading your posts during our 16 weeks of lockdown.
Oh good, nice to know Tim. Cheers
I wonder if you might oblige me, Simon. What is the name of the triangle-shaped sewing pattern visible where the centre reverse pleat begins? And, does it have a purpose or is it merely ornamental?
From these pictures, that figure appears to be significantly less “polished” that on your other overcoats that have it (Cifonelli and Liverano). Would you say this is correct? If so, does that reflects a broader step-down in attention to detail between those makers and Ciardi? Thanks.
It’s intended to reinforce the top of the pleat and stop the fabric from ever ripping.
It’s sometimes called a sprat’s head (after the fish) and yes, it is less worked than on other coats, especially Cifonelli which has all handwork filling in that triangle.
Nice coat. Those pockets are hideous though.
Now we just need some winter. -20 celsius,al least.
I think I’m going for Siberia this weekend.
Simon
A beautiful coat in every way.
Very nice coat, and thanks for the post. I once had a “made to measure” with similar style/camel hair color when I lived in Montana where it once was minus 61 below zero in 1954.
Simon – from the image of the back of the coat it appears that there are only 2 buttons on the belt.. how does one tighten it if this is the case or is it purely aesthetic? In which case would a fixed belt make more sense?
It is purely aesthetic, yes, as most belts like this are.
You could have a sewn-on belt if you think this looks silly to not be functional, but I don’t think it does personally. There’d be no real need for a sewn-on belt either
Never being particularly happy with the tee under crew neckline, I’ve decided to go with the high neckline-I think it used to be called the mandarin collar. I have sourced a couple(rtw, here in the Netherlands ), if successful. I will ask a tailor to copy them.
I purchased a similar overcoat (double breasted with martingale back). I feel that the half-belt digs a little into my back and can be mildly uncomfortable, especially when I button up the coat and shove my hands in the pockets.
Do your coats put that kind of mild pressure on your back where the belt sits? I wasn’t sure if that was normal or required for this style of coat, or if it means I should have mine altered.
I think if it’s a fairly close fit, then you will feel it, and that’s perfectly normal.
But if you wear it another 10 or 12 times, and do find it uncomfortable, then perhaps look at having it altered to put more room in the waist, yes.
Spotted you in Drakes store on Saville Row on Wednesday week and must say I thought the coat fitted extremely well due to your height and allowed for the slope of your collarbones, the colour is a taupe even in electric light. The details of the coat were faultless such as lapel, button positioning, pockets and buttoned vent. If only all coat makers were to create to such a standard!
Thanks Warren, lovely to hear it looked that good to an observer!
And do say hello next time, if you feel like it. Always nice to chat
In reading some of the comments on the WW Chan blazer curious how you find this fabric comparing it to your brown tweed ulster (or other brown coats)
I wouldn’t use it for a coat really, if that’s what you mean?
Sorry, that wasn’t clear. Wondering how this fabric stacks up with these other coats (or other browns you might have in outwear):
1) https://www.permanentstyle.com/2020/02/grey-and-lilac-ralph-lauren-style-in-cifonelli.html
2) https://www.permanentstyle.com/2018/01/liverano-liverano-ulster-coat-review.html
It’s a lovely colour, and would work well in that respect, but it’s lighter and I think probably wouldn’t be great as a result. Tweeds also are often not great for coats, if designed as jacketings. I was surprised my Liverano one worked so well
Awesome coat. I recently had a coat made for me by Oxxford using many of your posts as inspiration. One detail that I’m not sure we got quite right was the buttoned back vent. Would you mind describing how that was done for your vent? For example, is the outer edge stitched down? My vent includes the buttons and looks almost identical to your picture but the folds in my vent are just pressed down and when worn the back does not drape cleanly.
Hi David,
This is an interesting area, and actually different makers vary in how they do it. I’ll do a full article on it some time. But in short, yes one of the folds is normally sewn down.
Beautiful Coat! Would love it in a light Camel color. Just my preference.
Thanks Adam. More like this perhaps?
Hi Simon,
I am currently looking to have my first bespoke overcoat made. The current overcoats are RTW navy and camel (find the latter difficult to wear tbh).
What are your musings on the colours that are the most versatile? I think taupe would certainly be more useful than camelhair but are there other colours that are more versatile? I did think a darker brown, although my preference would be something in cashmere so not sure on suitability.
I am not a huge fan of herringbone, so I think tweeds for my first one are probably going to be ruled out. My general ‘uniform’ is towards odd trousers and jackets/knitwear, as opposed to worsted suits.
Thank you.
I think mid-grey or brown would be the places to look. With a little texture, so a chunky twill, a herringbone or a donegal.
Herringbone is very useful, and it can be any material, not just tweed
Hi Simon,
Don’t know why, just not a fan of herringbone on anything. Mid grey is the only time I seem to like it.
Do you think a brown similar shade to your Cifonelli? https://www.permanentstyle.com/2020/02/grey-and-lilac-ralph-lauren-style-in-cifonelli.html
Would that have enough texture?
Yes, that would be nice. If there’s a brown with a touch more texture that would be good, whether herringbone or not, in order to make it more casual.
How long should such a cost be ?
It seems like there are some versions that are a few inches longer than this one. Is it a matter of personal preference ?
You mean how long should a coat like this be?
To be a real overcoat, it should be below the knee. This is also much more practical, as any rain doesn’t run straight down onto the knees.
How far below that is a question of personal preference and style, yes. A taller guy can usually get away with a longer length – or rather, a longer length looks less dramatic on him, even proportionately
Yes, that’s what I meant, thanks Simon.
Why is this cost shorter than your Sexton great coat? Why not add a couple of inches to it?
I’ve actually had the Sexton coat shortened, a few years ago… post coming on that
I see, what was the problem with its original length? In other words why is this cost the right length ? Why not have a few more inches ? It seems to me it’s just barely below the knee.
When it was longer it looked too stylised, something you would notice as a stranger. And it was impractical – it would get caught on things
Makes sense Simon, thanks.
So given that we know your height, what is the coat’s length?
I don’t know off hand Noel, but surely it’s easier just to think in terms of inches below the knee, without trying to calculate proportions based on height and length?
Fair point, so hoy many inches below the knee would be both practical and elegant?
I’d say a minimum of two, and probably a maximum of four or five. But with the latter, do consider it yourself in the mirror, as you may find you have a particular preference
Simon, any thoughts why the Ciardi overcoat is relatively pricey? Is the Ulster style more expensive than a normal top coat from them? I would have expected it to be more in the range of one of the more expensive Neapolitan suits from a renowned maker, say 3500 euros or so. Do love the style, so I was intrigued. But may have to go with W&S if this one is 3k more….Many thanks, as always, Jan
The cloth is quite expensive, given it’s such a dense wool. There’s also more work than you’d think in an ulster, yes, because of the pleating on the back and then overlapping pleats at the bottom
Simon,
I notice that there’s a difference between the back of this overcoat compared to your Liverano Ulster: this one appears to have darts whereas the Liverano has pleats. Would you mind advising on the reasoning for the difference and whether you think there’s any practical benefit one way or the other?
Many thanks, as always.
The Ciardi uses a combination of darts and pleats, yes. It’s just a different method of construction and it has little practical difference. A little more movement in the back with the Liverano, perhaps, but the space cut into the back makes a much bigger difference.
Thank you Simon. Subjective I know, but the Ciardi back just looks ‘cleaner’ to me. But both coats are amazing!
Yes, the Liverano back is also cut bigger, as mentioned, so that makes it look less clean
Hi Simon, the coat is really a beautiful thing.
I’m looking at commissioning something very similar in the same cloth, however I’d be looking at a U.K. tailor for accessibility and cost.
Briefly, what would be your thoughts on having something similar made by Whitcombe & Shaftesbury? (Offshore, Classic Bespoke). I’m thinking the major difference to their house style would be achieving the softer shoulder, and avoiding any unwanted flourishes as you mentioned in your article on W&S.
Regards,
Chris
Yes that would be right Chris I think. Make sure you specify those finishing points in advance so they don’t have to be undone later