On the final day of the pop-up shop back in October, it occurred to me to bring in my blue PS Oxford shirt - to show how it had softened with age.
The response was telling. Half of the people that felt it bought one on the day, and several of the others bought online subsequently.
For anyone afraid of PS becoming too commercial, I think frankly it shows how downright amateurish I am about selling things. Of course I should have brought it in earlier.
The way the cloth washes and wears is one of the main selling points - and the one hardest to get across on a computer screen.
I won’t repeat that mistake in the next pop-up. The original shirt, beautifully softened to the point it is the most comfortable thing I own, will be on display.
And as regards this post is concerned, you’ll just have to take my word for it. Or that of readers.
The white version of the PS Oxford cloth is finally available - and on the Shop now, both as cloth and as finished shirts.
With that addition, it feels like this authentic oxford project has reached a watershed. The shirts are now available in blue, white and cream/blue stripe, and present perhaps the full basic range.
Those three will be the most useful oxford colours for most guys, and cover all eventualities, from the casual to the smart.
There will always be other interesting options of course - pinks and reds and yellows - but these three are the core.
From a styling point of view, a white oxford shirt is interesting.
Smart in colour but casual in texture, it sits on the borderline between formalities - and could be seen as neither one thing nor the other.
But if you dress relatively casually - perhaps defined as not wearing a suit and tie most of the time - then the white oxford does fill a particular need, I think.
It is smart enough to be worn with a navy blazer, wool trousers and shoes. But also with a charcoal tweed jacket. With an oatmeal crewneck. Even with pale vintage jeans and tennis shoes.
The colour helps it wear smart, the texture keeps it casual. And it could go with almost anything in the sun of summer.
In the image above, it works well with a cardigan and flannels. Indeed it dresses up both those things.
But in the image below (and higher up) it also works well with tailoring.
That’s a double-breasted corduroy jacket from Sartoria Ciardi, charcoal Fox-flannel trousers from Whitcomb & Shaftesbury, and dark dark brown monk-straps from Edward Green.
The trousers and shoes in particular make the overall combination rather smart.
And then I’ve pictured it with something much more casual below.
The cardigan is from Loopwheeler in Japan, and akin to a sweatshirt in formality - particularly with those big pockets.
While the trousers are the Army Chino from The Armoury: robust selvedge twill, high waisted and full in the leg.
It’s almost a workwear combination, but the white oxford works with it all. Indeed the white is particularly nice with the cream cardigan and fatigue-green chinos. Blue wouldn’t be as pleasing.
For those not familiar with the PS Oxford project and fabric, I’ve included a brief summary below.
But if you already know the product, or even own it, everything you need is on the shop page.
The full background is available on the launch article here.
Summary:
- The PS Oxford project was born out of a frustration with the lack of slubby, authentic oxford cloths available for bespoke.
- The bespoke shirting market still focuses on dress shirts primarily, and there was nothing out there. So I worked with Italian mill Canclini to make one.
- We wanted: heavier weight and thicker yarn, to make it more comfortable and soften with age; and a subtle variation in the blue/white yarns that leads to that nubby, natural appearance.
- The texture comes from using a short-staple cotton, so the weft of our PS Oxford is single-ply 10-count.
- But in the warp we used two fine yarns (both of them two-ply 90-count), instead of another single-ply one.
- This keeps the thickness and character, but also avoids some of the downsides of short-staple cotton, such as pilling.
- There are better oxfords available ready to wear, such as Mercer & Sons, but even those use 2-ply in both weft and warp. After a lot of testing, I think the Canclini warp-weft combination is the best overall.
Practical points:
- As with all the PS shirt cloths the fabric is pre-cut into 2m lengths, which should be enough for most guys (roughly, anyone 6’3’’ and under).
- The fabric is pre-washed, but as with most oxfords is still prone to a little shrinkage. We recommend allowing an extra 1cm in the body width and sleeve length, 2cm in the body length
- If anyone wants to send the cloth to a shirtmaker, please put them as the delivery address - and let them know it’s coming.
- The shirts are the same as other PS shirts, made by Luca Avitabile in Naples with several points of handwork, and vintage-style mother-of-pearl buttons
- The cloth costs £59, the shirts £185, both ex-VAT. Each has gone up slightly on a year ago, reflecting exchange rates
Photography: Jamie Ferguson
The cloth of the jacket, by the way, is Holland & Sherry 187109 (9oz)
Hi simon. Any thoughts on the new armoury chinos?
I like them, but they are different in most respects from the original Army Chinos so I would see them more as a new item, not a replacement.
They are higher in the rise (a real high rise), wider in the leg, in a different softer cloth, and with buttons rather than rivets
Excellent! Been waiting for this one, order placed. Wearing the blue one with olive chinos and a grey loopwheeler sweater today, wonderful cloth. Now I’m just missing/hoping there will be a Cream/Pink striped version as well, would be awesome since the Cream/Blue striped one is probably my favourite shirt.
Hi Simon,
Congratulations on another product release. Been looking forward to this.
Also, appreciate that you cited the reason for the price increase.
Cheers.
And nice to know it’s worth putting that in there. Cheers Neil
Simon why do you say the white is better suited to your last outfit than a blue one would be? I find it hard to agree with that sentiment. I think the blue would add a lot more interest overall.
To the cream cardigan outfit?
I find with that pale cream, white is needed to add contrast. The blue fades away rather and doesn’t suit it.
Blue does look great with the pale-green chinos though
Having brought the stripped oxford cloth and had it made this is a welcome addition.
The stripped oxford was my first MTM shirt and I used Simone Abbarchi .
It was a wonderful experience but I have noticed a ‘shortening’ of sleeve and cuff width, no doubt due to shrinkage.
Is this something that can ever be countenanced on a first MTM commission ?
Note that on subsequent commissions I found similar occurrence with 1 out of 3 shirts ordered in various clothes.
Maybe , despite expense , insist on one shirt which is laundered many times before re-commissioning more with adjusted measurements ?
P.S. despite these small issues I would recommend Simone Abbarchi for the collar style , quality of cloth and warmth of service !
Hey Robin,
It is a bit more of a risk with Oxfords than other cloths, but Simone should be washing it before making, and we wash before selling too. Still, as mentioned on the shop we’d expect around 1cm shrinkage on the sleeve and 2cm on the body over time. Cuff width shouldn’t change really
A white Oxford shirt is as versatile as it gets, I think. I wear them with a suit and tie as well, I like the contrast in texture. Also that grey corduroy jacket is lovely, manages to look quite modern and not stuffy at all
Cheers Matt
Hi Simon,
Great addition to the PS shop.
Was there a consideration for traditional OCBD features on the RTW shirts, such as a pocket, rear pleat etc?
Have you tried the Angloitalian OCBD’s, how would you compare the fabric for the PS Oxford?
Thanks,
Ricky
Fascinating color on the warp/weft issues and how this fabric diverges from the “dressier” cloths typically carried by bespoke makers. I often wear casual oxfords from Drakes that, at least at first glance, appear to be have the thicker, slubbier properties you reference (though I haven’t seen significant softening with age). Just curious how you see your new PS fabric comparing to Drakes cloth. Thanks!
Hey Justin,
I don’t know the specifications of the Drake’s cloth, nor do I have any, but I think from what I’ve seen that it’s a 2 ply yarn in warp and weft, so it’s not going to be as slubby
Given my coloring I tend to wear few white shirts. If I recall correctly Simon you have tended to not wear them too much either although the photos in the article look great. Do you plan on wearing more white shirts ? Has your opinion evolved re their suitability for you ?
Hey. Actually I do wear them more now that I have them in casual cloths, like oxfords and cotton/linen. I didn’t used to wear them as much in poplins or twills just because they were a little smart
Hi Simon, I’ve ordered the cloth about two years ago and the shirt I’ve been made from it has become one of my absolute favourites. Thank you very much for all your research and effort you have put in this profect!
Philipp
Oh good! I’m so pleased Philipp, and thanks for letting me know
Hey Simon I wonder if you ever feel 108cm in chest for a medium is a little too small… Im a 38 in jackets and 110cm is the smallest I can go…
To be honest we haven’t had that feedback from anyone else, but I’d certainly reconsider if we did.
Been seriously in need of a white casual shirt, so very please to see this!
One question: without necessarily providing specifics, do you intend to release additional PS items in the next few weeks? I like to bundle a few items together to save on shipping costs, so if there are more PS items on the way, I might want to wait and see what they are before buying.
The next thing will be the Friday Polos again, but not for 3 or 4 weeks
Can we expect that the your shirt collection (denims, oxfords) will remain more or less constantly available in the shop or there is a risk that you will discontinue some of them?
Good question. There are no plans at the moment to discontinue any of them. They are meant to be wardrobe staples and constantly coming back into stock. We’re not going to change anything season to season.
The only potential risk is if any colour or pattern doesn’t prove that popular, and removing it would allow us to offer another. But there’s no danger of that at the moment.
Hi Simon
The loopwheeler cardigan looks great. Is a trip to Japan needed to buy one?
Generally yes. They often have some pieces on Amazon, but it’s patchy and hard to tell size
Great to see this, I’m in need of some casual shirts and plan to order the three types of PS Oxford cloth from the shop for Luca Avitabile to make up.
Quick question, did I imagine this or did you plan at one point to do a pink PS Oxford too?
Yes, we’ve been trialling one (or rather two – two different colours). It should be available in 2-3 months
Hi Simon. Somewhat tangential question. Do you recall what the color point measurement is for the shirt you’re wearing in this post and also (if different) for the PS stock shirt in XL? (I’m guessing your is bespoke to your own measurements, so they might be measured differently.) I ask because I plan to buy the PS oxford fabric in each color and give to my shirtmaker, but I’m still working with him to nail the point length for the button-down collar. I’m tall (6’4″) and have found previous button-down collars, 3.25″ to be disproportionately small, but I don’t want to make it eccentrically long. Of course, my shirtmaker has offered input on how much to lengthen it, but I would appreciate your guidance on what range would be good for a point length that has a nice roll and frames the face well for a tall man of moderate build. Thanks.
Hi
We don’t change the collar point length between sizes, but that’s doesn’t mean you won’t want to. And mine is the same as the ready-made ones: the collar points are 9 cm long.
Point length on a button down is an important factor in getting a good roll on the collar, but it is only one of a number of considerations. 3.5” should be your starting point.
Stand height front and back, and collar length at back are all part of the equation. Button position is also fundamental, as too low and it pulls the points down, and too
high pushes them up.
Most important is collar construction. Unfused is essential if you want to get any kind of natural roll. Fusing will fight against this. Unlined is best too, although a very soft interlining will do.
Hope this is helpful.
Thank you Kevin.
The position of the button is certainly very important, and it’s something I worked on a lot with Luca on my bespoke shirts – and has proved popular with people on these ready-made versions.
I disagree rather on the construction, however, as I’ve had unfused and unlined, and prefer this lightly fused version – there’s still a very natural roll.
Yes, each to their own of course.
I am generally not a fan of fusing; floating with the right level of firmness to the interlining will always be a better option in my view, and of course the button down collar was always made this way historically.
Hello Simon,
This may be a little too late here for a reply. But I found your detail on 9cm collar points to be very helpful (as well as this discussion here.) I have recently purchased 4 of the PS fabrics (3 oxford and denim) and am meeting my tailor this Sunday to begin the CTM process.
What is the height of the collars on the PS oxfords?
Thank you in advance for your wisdom here. Please excuse if I’ve glossed over this measurement detail in another one your posts.
Cheers,
Miles
No worries Miles. The collar height at the back is 4.2cm, but the collar also depends on how high it is placed up your neck, and with bespoke the height should also be adjusted depending on your neck length
I am a happy owner of several of the RTW blue shirts. Although I find the cloth nice, and I’m sure the cloth is unique in certain respects, I’ve found other cloths that I’m equally happy about. What really appeals to me is the quality of the collars. This ongoing collaboration between Permanent Style and Luca Avitabile is superb.
Simon
Just a general question on OBDC… If I were to remove pocket from drakes / anglo Italian shirts would I notice it? I can’t afford the expense of yours , sadly, but would love a shirt sans pocket…
It’s likely there would be some kind of small marking where the pocket was sewn on before, yes
Apologies if this may be the wrong post on which to ask the question regarding an aspect of bespoke shirting…
I was searching for the post where you had referenced that you had experienced a change in body shape (i.e. your back) and its effect on your bespoke shirts. How did you address the problem? Was there anything that could be altered on the existing shirt, such as removal of the darts; or was it simply a case of having new shirts commissioned?
Excellent addition to your fabric collection.
Thanks.
No there wasn’t anything that could be done unfortunately – the change is across the back and shoulders, not waist, so the darts aren’t much help. It was a fairly small change though, so it’s only noticeable on one or two shirts, usually ones where there has been a little shrinkage anyway
FYI – sizing chart format on the shop page is buggered on an iphone.
Thanks, I’ll look into that
would you wear a L or a M?
I have them made bespoke (hence the availability of cloth), but I’d wear an M
Hi Simon, how many washes does it take for the fabric to soften?
It starts quickly, but I’d say you’ll see the full softness after 6-8 washes
Until I read this I had no idea that there were so many options for wearing a white shirt.
Thank you for continuing to provide us with so many wonderful insights.
I am learning from you on a daily basis
Not too shabby
Hi Simon,
I already own shirts made from the other two PS clothes and love the texture and weight. They’ve become softer with age and they tend to wrinkle a lot less than lighter fabrics. This will be the first white shirt I’ll own in quite some time (I usually find white hard to wear without a suit or quite a formal jacket). Grey is a colour that perhaps could work as well.
Regarding washing, should one wash at 30C so the cloth lasts longer or is the standard 40C of shirt programmes ok?
Finally, What can one do to avoid yellowing under the arm pits (besides wearing an undershirt)? I’m not sure if it’s the deodorant or the sweat that’s responsible.
40 degrees is fine, just never tumble dry.
The best solution to yellowing is putting on some stain remover in the area occasionally – and not when it gets bad, but when you first notice anything
It is usally the deodorant that has aluminium in it
Hello Simon,
those Oxford shirts are so great shirts, if not the best with regards to quality and fit I have in my wardrobe. Still waiting for your restock.
However, I have a question on your Armoury chinos, which also look very beautiful. First, I understand that you are wearing the Army Chinos on the pics above (just wondering as the fabric on the Armoury website look so different..). How would you compare those to their Model A chinos? With regards to fit and fabric?
Such a pity that there is no retailer selling that stuff in the EU. Just a mess to send it back with customs, freight etc.
Many thanks
Daniel
Thanks Daniel, that’s so nice to hear.
I haven’t tried the Model A chinos I’m afraid so can’t really comment. I think these are higher rise, wider leg and heavier, coarser material, but best to check with them
Any one else experience with the Model A? I thought thats the chino The Armoury is known for?
Hey Daniel I have both the new army chinos and the model a sports chinos. The new army chinos is higher in rise and wider through the entire leg than the sports chino, which is rather slim. The army chino sits above my belly button while the sports chino sits just below it. I’m not sure if the sports chino differs from the model a trousers though but they have similar measurements in the website so I assume they are the same
Thanks for chipping in, that’s really helpful
Hi Simon, apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere, but I have a question regarding the collar hight, is it the taller version you designed with Luca?
Yes, it is a little taller. The same as on all the PS shirts
Hi Simon,
I am 6’4 but quite slim. Would I need 1 or 2 lots of cloth?
Thanks.
One should be OK, but worth checking with your shirtmaker just to be sure
The Oxford shirts are great – thank you. Can I ask on the Loopwheeler cardigan: how are these sized? From your experience would medium be right for a 39″ chest or should I size up?
That would be the same as me, so probably right yes
Hello Simon
Is there a reason why you did not incorporate a box pleat in the back of the Oxford button down and also why you don’t show photos of the back of the shirt in the E-shop ?
It’s because I generally like to keep my designs cleaner and simpler, so no box pleat or hanger loop, and I never have pockets on my shirts either.
The lack of back photo on the shop is pure forgetfulness. I’ll add one later
Simon,
Just wanted to say thanks for releasing the RTW shirt along side the cloth. This is ideal for those of us who love the fit and finish of your RTW shirts.
Oh good. Thanks for writing to say so, Joel
Beautiful cloth Simon. Can I ask, will you be restocking the blue and cream stripe cloth any time soon?
Much appreciated as always
Hey Chris,
Yes, a new batch is coming in mid-March. Email [email protected] if you want to be on the waiting list and so get an alert when it arrives.
Thanks
Apologies Simon but one more question. I have my first appointment with Luca next week. Can I ask, will he be likely have similar cloth available to the PS cloth (denim, oxford etc.) on offer? Two oxfords and one denim is what I’m planning for my first order, and I aim to get them in the most robust cloth I can that will last and age well. Any specific recommendations would be greatly appreciated, given your experience and relationship with Luca.
Much appreciated as always
Hi Chris,
Well, he will certainly have oxfords and denims available, but I developed the PS versions of both because there was nothing else like them on the market – so there won’t be anything like those two, no.
If you want to use those, and the oxford certainly is more robust than pretty much anything else offered by the cut length, then you’ll have to order it from the PS Shop and get it sent to Luca to make.
Thanks
Thanks Simon,
Just as I thought, in which case I’ll now make a point of ordering a small variety of PS cloth’s and have them sent to Luca once he has my measurements on record. Also very glad to hear the blue and cream is making a return, something about that cream against blue as opposed to white really sets it apart, but you know this already! Apologies for the dual comments, I got carried away. Thank you sir for your detailed responses.
Much appreciated as always
No problem at all Chris. Thanks
Just a thought Simon, but after that soft pink oxford, a solid cream of your blue and cream stripe would be outstanding. It’s a hard color to get just right to differentiate it from white but not be yellow. If anyone could do it you could!
Interesting, thanks Joel
I’d second that suggestion, although I’d put it ahead of the pink. It’s really difficult to get a good cream(ish) shirt without it looking yellow. It’s taken me ages to find a cloth that is colder and much less yellow than most of what’s available (without simple looking like an aged and poorly laundered white). I’ve managed to do so (more or less) for a business shirt, it to have something more casual in the PS Oxford cloth would be great. The RTW shirts don’t work for me, but to have cloth that I can get made up in a MTM or bespoke shirt would be really helpful.
Hi Simon,
In the image where you are seated with a cup of tea in your hand, I like the flannel fabric in light grey you are wearing and was wondering if you can provide the fabric code, I am assuming it’s from Fox Flannel. Also what socks are you wearing with the trousers, I am looking for a good weight ribbed socks?
Thanks
Rupesh
Yes it is from Fox but I’m afraid I don’t have the code to hand, and it may also have changed. I think there’s only one mid-weight light grey in that bunch though.
The socks are from Breciani via Mes Chaussettes Rouges. Again, they’re old, but the guys at MCR should be able to help you with weights etc
Hey Simon I own both the old and new armoury chinos and have 2 questions:
1) I know you have tried the bryceland chinos. How do they compare to the new armoury chinos in terms of fit and fabric?
2) I prefer the old armoury chinos to the new ones as the latter has a sturdier cloth and seems to have a more moderate rise. Have you tried anything in the market that are closest to them?
1- Brycelands ones are a similar fabric to the old Armoury ones, but a rather different cut. Wider and higher
2- No, sorry
Thanks simon, can i ask how the bryce land chinos compare to the new armoury chinos? Even higher and wider or pretty much the same?
Higher and wider, yes
As I understand it the new Armoury chinos have a higher rise and wider cut than the previous version. Anyone know how the new version compares in rise and fullness to the Bryceland’s army chinos?
I seem to have answered this on a few posts now!
Yes, the Brycelands ones are higher and wider still.
I’m afraid this might be too specific, but when looking at the measurements the Armoury chinos seem to have a higher rise and wider leg opening than the Bryceland’s ones.
Ah, ok. I’m going off memory of trying the Brycelands ones – I don’t own any. They certainly seemed bigger to me as far as I can recall
Hello Simon
Can we expect a restock of this shirt in the Large size?
Same question for the striped oxford.
Thanks a lot
Yes, on both, but we need to wait for Italy to open up factories again.
There is a waiting list, which you can get onto by emailing [email protected] if you want
Hi Simon,
What do you think about pale yellow as a possible next colour?
I’m already trialling it Neil…
Hello – are you now selling the cloth in pink?
Yes – it’s available on the shop site now.
Sneaked it in! Will you be rhapsodising on it at some point? I quite enjoy those articles (or did I miss it).
No you’re right, we haven’t done a full post on it. I was waiting until I had the ready-made shirts as well…
will you have a chambary fabric for sale soon?
It will be the beginning of next month. India has still been on lockdown, which is causing the delay
Great looking
Forward to it!
Hi Simon,
This is my first comment, and I want to start by saying how impressed I am with your ability to respond to nearly every comment! I have also been following your website with ever greater interest over the last few months – while I am still very new to this quality/price range of clothing, I love the content and tone of your writing. I very much am of the philosophy “buy less but better” (having recently invested in two pairs of Northampton shoes).
And now to my question – I am struggling with comparing sizing on my current shirts with your sizing chart for the Oxford shirts (i.e. knowing where to measure from, and correctly translating in to cm). This would be the first shirt over $100 for me, and as you often point out, fit is so important.
I am torn between S and M – I am 6′ and 155lb; my jacket size is 38 (equivalent to UK48 I believe?) and a 14.5″ neck. The closest comparison I could give is Charles Tyrwhitt shirts, which are 15/38 (34/86) in extra slim fit, or S in their casual shirts.
I would be open to ordering the shirting fabric and finding a tailor nearby, but at the risk of not getting the beautiful collar you have on the pre-made shirts.
Thanks for your time – returns from overseas are not something I want to entertain.
Cheers from Quebec, Canada!
Hey Matthew, that’s so nice to hear!
We always recommend comparing measurements on a shirt you have with our ones. What measurements in our table were you unsure of? If you can compare those to your Tyrwhitt ones, that will be the best thing.
Oh, and the most important thing is always the neck and shoulders. You can slim the waist locally if you need to.
Hi again Simon,
You mention focusing on the neck and shoulders – from the PS Shop measurements would this be the yoke? (Based on my current shirts, Medium seems to be the closest fit, including neck and chest, but the yoke on most of my shirts is ~45cm).
I also see that Medium is sold out on the PS Striped Oxford, any plans for getting more in stock?
Thanks!
Hi Matthew,
We’ll actually get some more in this week. Do email [email protected] to get on the waiting list if you want, and you’ll get an email when they come back in.
The yoke is the closest thing to the shoulders, yes, though if the chest works I wouldn’t worry so much about the yoke measurement – that’s a little bit about how the style in which shirt is cut as well (eg Neapolitans prefer a smaller shoulder, saying it aids movement)
I do realize that most people are using oxford shirts for their more casual outfits in the colder months, such as tweed and jeans. For me, oxfords, because of their coarse and matte finish, are also perfect together with high twist and linen suits in the warmer months (as long as it is bearable regarding outside temperatures). This is especially true for the more vintage versions of oxford cloth like the PS ones. Any thoughts on that?
I can see the point about the matte finish. But personally I think the material would still be too casual for me, with a high-twist suit. Perhaps with linen, and certainly with cotton though. Then they would be more casual, and have the advantage of that harmony in texture.
I can totally see that. Thanks for your input. You are probably right about the high twists. For me it is similar to wearing a denim shirt under a rather smart suit. I know it is not ideal, but makes the outfit therefore less dressed up and more relaxed, because it is not “perfect” to most people.
Ah I see. Yes that makes sense. More a case of subverting the rules – and therefore the expectations – rather than seeking to follow them.
Would a linen shirt be too casual for a high twist suit?
Not necessarily, though always worth keeping its casualness in mind – eg you might not wear that combination to the smartest place/event
I admit, that regarding cottons and linens I am not trying to subvert any rules with oxford shirts. And with high twists, it it probably just an excuse to wear my favourite kind of shirt all year.
Agnelli is often said to have worn his OCBD with suits. But in reality I think he just wore them with his VBC flannel suits and this is also not subverting, because the oxford goes perfectly well with flannel, I think.
Yes, good point. If it is a little bit more casual than you’d normally wear with a suit and tie, it’s only that little bit.
Hey Simon-
Is there a review of the above pictured DB corduroy from Ciardi? The link goes to a separate Ciardi commission. The informality of the grey corduroy really softens what might otherwise be a stuffy DB. Beautiful jacket.
Thank you.
No, there isn’t a dedicated piece on that jacket. I don’t tend to review every commission from a tailor – usually just the first one, or a second piece when it’s a different category (eg coat, tuxedo).
Thanks. Good to know. Really enjoy the archives. I greatly appreciate what you do.
It’s peculiar: on the one hand, white is not very versatile for a dress shirt because it is such a formal color; in that context, a light blue shirt is much easier to wear. On the other hand, a white Oxford shirt works incredibly well with jeans – perhaps more so than a blur shirt.
Interesting – I generally find a blue shirt more versatile with jeans, but then it does depend a little on the colour of jean.
Simon, Quick question – is it possible (and would it make sense) to wash the cloth a few times before handing it over to a shirt maker to eliminate shrinkage in the finished shirt? I had Luca Avitabile make a shirt out of the blue oxford a while back, and it seems to have shrunk more than other shirts that he made at the same time. As a result, it’s now fairly tight across the chest whereas the other shirts are ok in that area. So even the shirt maker who should have had the most experience with this cloth didn’t seem to get it right perfectly. I’d probably go with someone else for the next round of shirts, so might make that risk even more acute. Just ordered a whole batch of cloth from the shop, btw – it was great that all colors where and the chambray as well were in stock at the same time. As always, thanks for your help and advice. Best, Jan
Hi Jan,
Bespoke shirtmakers should wash the cloth themselves before making with it, and Luca says he normally does that twice, which should take all the shrinkage out of it. Clearly that hasn’t been the case with you.
With a new shirtmaker, if you advise them that there is shrinkage of 3-5% in the cloth, they should make sure to do the same thing and take all the shrinkage out of it. But if you wanted to be absolutely safe, you could wash it yourself, yes. Do it twice at 40, and iron carefully after.
Cheers
Thanks, Simon, that`s very helpful. To be 100 percent sure, can I just put the pieces of cloth in the washing machine as they come? I noticed there are some loose threads where the cloth was cut. Looking fwd to being able to go to Naples at some point this year and getting the shirts made 😉 Cloth really is very beautiful. Best, Jan
Cheers Jan. And yes you can – those edges should be fine
Simon
I have recently had some shirts made up in your blue, yellow oxford and chambray.
My cleaner kindly helps me w/ laundry and is keen on tumbledrying. Can you please tell me why I shouldn’t do this and what will happen if I do?
A few things, George.
1 – Dry cleaning will accentuate any shrinkage. It’s more likely to make cloth shrink and the shirt become too small, if there is any in the cloth.
2 – It is a rough process, and can damage any hand work, such as the collars and armholes.
3 – It will wear the cloth, again from that roughness. Not always a problem, as some people want a more weathered look on their shirts. But the two points above still hold.
Thanks Simon. Just wondering how much shrinkage really will occur. If 2cm were to happen normally with your oxford and 0cm with the chambray… Does that 2cm and 0cm become 3 and 1 (respectively) for 6 and 4?
Hard to quantify I know but basically need to decide how much effort I am going to put into guarding shirts!
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by the 6 and 4?
I would add, though, that once you get down to 1cm it’s really not worth bothering with and won’t be noticeable. Materials change that much just when they warm up, and any shirt has a tolerance of that in the making.
Sorry trying to ask if I put your fabrics in the dryer, will they (instead of the 2cm shrinkage you advise) shrink 3cm or 6cm?
Essentially how much shrink does a drier add. Probably impossible to answer but thought I would try and make your life difficult!
It is hard to say, yes George. The answer basically is, it will likely shrink them more, and I would avoid it as a result.
Hi, I have a question relating to the jacket. From your experience, how do neapolitan db jackets compare to other places? Particularly as a lot of people go for a neapolitan cut because it’s less formal and by it’s nature a db is quite formal. Could a navy db in a traditional serge cloth work well with jeans if it’s a cut like the one here? It’s also quite a striking lapel, which I think adds a bit of casualness, but how do you find it after having owned the jacket for a while, do you not get tired of it? Also, do you know if Ciardi are planning to return with trunk shows once restrictions lift? Thank you very much for any insights!
No worries Nick.
I do like the lapel, and haven’t grown tired of it. Perhaps because the material is quite subtle.
I wouldn’t personally wear a navy DB with jeans probably. At the least, it would be more of a look. I’d stick with SB for that kind of use.
Ciardi are planning to return, yes, but obviously it’s not quite possible yet.
Hello Simon. I received my White PS Oxford shirt. I’m very pleased with my purchase and the quality of craftsmanship and your knowledge and expertise that’s gone into making it. Highly recommended. I’m liking the way the collar is framing my face, also getting used to such collar shapes. The pair of jeans I’m looking to pair it with is https://thearmoury.com/collections/denim/products/the-armoury-by-nigel-cabourn-5-pocket-denim-jeans?variant=17728986415175 ( summers ) and with a Barbour Lutz waxed cotton jacket as an outerwear for winters.
That sounds like a great combination Amit, and I’m so pleased you like the shirt.
Hi Simon,
Is this shirt too casual to pair with flannels and a jacket like your oatmeal Escorial (e.g., not as casual as a typical tweed, but smart in its own informal way)?
No I don’t think so. That’s the beauty of it really – it goes from washed-out jeans to anything smart except a really sharp business suit and tie
Hi Simon, I need to alter the PS oxford shirts to fit me. Would you recommend taking in side seams or making darts at the back? Personally, I thought taking in side seams would be cleaner, and I am not concerned about gaining weight in the near future, but the tailor suggested darts, which sounds messy to me.
Many thanks,
Jack
Darts aren’t that messy really, they’re standard in a lot of bespoke shirts – it’s a good way to give shape through the small of the back, not just the body as a whole. And they’re easier to reverse.
Great, thanks for such a prompt response. I switched it to darts before the tailor started the work —many things to learn.
I study your articles every spare time I have but still nowhere sufficient. These days, I often recall university days when I was fresher. When I thought I was quite ready with the necessary terms while visiting tailors or shops, some new words popped out, making me panic. Sometimes leads me to choose an option that I am comfortable with when there is a better option.
Well, I should trust and listen to the alteration tailors or salespeople if I decide to visit them. Still, sometimes it’s pretty tricky for me to listen/trust others who are not undoubtedly reliable to my standard. Therefore, I do immensely appreciate your work.
No problem at all Jack, and please do always ask questions whenever you have them. They don’t just benefit you – often other readers are thinking similar things as well
Thanks, Simon, if I go back to the shirt’s alteration question. I initially requested the tailor to narrow down side seams by 3 cm. After speaking to you, I amended the request to 3cm darts on each side. The tailor suggested I don’t need to come in for another fitting, as it would have a similar effect to my initial request (3cm taper sideseams). Would you agree to this?
Also, if I create darts of 3cm on each side, does that mean the waist measurement of the shirt will be reduced by 6cm?
Yes, the effect will be the same, just a little more of it in the back than the front.
And yes, that should be right
Great, thank you.
Hi Simon, I had my shirts back, and I uploaded photos of me wearing them. I thought it would be great and relieved if I could hear your opinions, whether they look good or more/less needs to be done.
The darts had been placed up to the mid-high scapulas. Is this the correct way to do it?
Many thanks,
Jack
Many thanks,
Jack
Hi Jack,
Normally darts would be lower down, not running so high, but there’s nothing necessarily wrong with going that high if it means they fit you better.
It’s hard to assess the fit remotely, even with pictures – it looks fine, but it isn’t easy to tell from a couple of pictures, and how you want it to fit is a little personal as well.
Have you looked at this video we did about shirt commissioning and shirt fit?
Thanks for the video, Simon. I have to say that it was very helpful.
I feel awkward around my upper back. It may be because I have been wearing shirts not too fitted. I will wear them for a week and decide whether I should let them out a bit.
Good plan
Dear Simon! Would you wear your white oxford shirt with your DB navy hopsack from caliendo? I like to think that the textures of the PS oxford and the hopsack go well together.
Are you still wearing your caliendo DB often? Or is your post covid world too casual for navy DBs?
I just ordered the white and blue oxford cloth and L.A. will make some tweaks for me with the standard RTW block. Looking forward how it turns out. Cheers
I would, yes. The material is a touch heavy for summer, but the two do sit together nicely.
I do wear the Caliendo a lot still, but then I have occasion to wear tailoring a lot too
Simon, what weight would you suggest for a versatile DB corduroy suit for UK use?
Many thanks
Around 9-11oz. I wouldn’t go lighter or heavier than that
I have the same question actually. I was thinking of going for the 14oz from Holland and Sherry, would that be too much?
It would be lovely, and not as warm as a wool would be. But probably too hot for a good part of the year
Sorry to spam this, but also, what sort of wale should we be looking at for a suit?
Around 12 is nice I think – not needlecord where it’s almost just texture, and not 8 where it’s more velvety because it’s more chunky
Hi Simon, I commissioned a shirt with PS oxford fabric to Luca, and I will be receiving it soon, but I noticed I didn’t let him know that the fabric would shrink after washing.
Do you think there is a possibility that shirt makers will take this into account that some fabrics may shrink?
Many thanks,
Jack
If they know the fabric, they should do, and Luca does know this oxford well. Still, worth checking with him just in case
Hi Simon
I love my shirt but wish the sleeve were a little longer. Is it possible to alter the shirts after purchase? In the future is there any way to change this?
Yes, the shirts can certainly be altered. Always easier to take in than take out, but the sleeves should be able to be lengthened by around a half inch. There is some inlay in there.
Find a good alterations place and see what they can do.
Amazing!
Is ‘light blue a better shirt colour choice than white’ for nighttime?
Your suggestion would be appreciated.
Well, tradition says white is better at night, or rather high contrast. But it really doesn’t matter Ayush – or if it does, it’s mostly about smartness, rather than anything else. White will usually, pari passu, look smarter
So in totality light blue can also look good. I was afraid of it looking a bit dull for nighttime events when it is just a shirt and no jacket.
Did i make the right inference from your advice?
Yes. It’s a nice principle to have in mind that white is nice at night, but it’s only one factor and formality is a more important one. No point wearing a crisp white poplin shirt with old jeans just because it’s night time.
This just makes me want to visit Florence and Tuscany even more! Nice article.
Whilst not wanting to sound too “nobbish” maybe the legal term to use here is prima facie rather than pari passu.
D’oh! I actually meant ceteris paribus, as in all other things being equal. Oh well
Part of the reason for me asking the question is that i have read a lot of articles calling light blue oxford, particularly the color too corporate and therefore should be avoided for casual and smart casual occasions. For me, i usually find it very versatile and like wearing it during weekends as well.
1)What is your opinion on it?
2)Do you like wearing light blue shirts for casual wear?
This might be a question of cultural associations, Ayush. I don’t think many people would think a casual blue oxford was corporate in the UK, but might in the US. With that baggage taken away, an oxford is certainly nice for casual and smart casual occasions. Aim for the most casual type though, like ours, rather than the fine oxford weaves offered as business shirts.
Simon, can you tell where I can find buttons like these? I haven’t seen wide mother-of-pearl buttons like these on sale, but there are many similar troca shell buttons. Are they as good as MOP? I believe Kiton uses light brown troca shell rather than MOP for many shirts. They are less shiny.
I’m afraid not Kirill, they are bought in bulk by Luca. Most things are like that unfortunately – it’s not economic to supply things like buttons to end consumers
Hi again Simon, do you think slightly larger buttons for collar ends will stand out or look strange in any way? I found similar buttons in a slightly smaller 11 mm diameter, but there was only one size, and my tailor made a shirt using these buttons for all parts of the shirt, including the cuffs and the collar ends.
Personally, yes I would rather not have a larger button there
Any timeline on when the blue and white large will be back in stock? I have the striped, yellow and pink- I need them all!
Of course you do, they’re amazing! They should be ready in the next month or so. I assume you’ve added yourself to the waiting list through the shop page?
Hi Simon,
Just purchased this white (and pink) oxford. Can’t wait to try them on.
Do you happen to remember the fabric code you had the corduroy jacket made from?
Hey – it was Holland & Sherry 187109 (9oz)
Dear Simon
I have previously purchased the yellow Oxford cloth and I can confirm that it is a fabulous material in all regards.
Could you tell me if you are contemplating any new colour options in the Oxford cloth in the near future and if so what might they be?
I would love something in a grey or off-white.
Best wishes
Elvin
Hi Elvin,
That’s lovely to hear, thank you. We are bringing in two new stripes, which should be here in a couple of months, but we haven’t revealed what those are yet. No plans for an off-white or grey I’m afraid.
Hello Simon. I wanted to know your thoughts in regards to styling my PS White Oxford – Shirt that I own. I intend to wear it with my Orslow Fatigue trousers Olive, like the way you wearing above, sans the cream cardigan. I’ll plainly and simply copy that look because I own both pieces of clothing. What I also wanted to ask is is it not do-able to pair it with my Nigel Cabourn’s Indigo and The Real McCoy’s Mid-Blue Jeans that I also own. I do know the formality of the white colour and a PS Blue Oxford – Shirt is more of an partner and perfect with my Indigo and Mid-Blue Jeans. But now since I have it in my wardrobe, I do want to enjoy it and wear them with my Jeans as well. Do you think my thinking makes sense here? Please let me know your thoughts?
All the Best for your NEXT TALK IN LONDON with ETHAN NEWTON on OCTOBER 25TH. Have a good one 😊
Yes that’s absolutely fine Amit. And thanks on the event!
Hello Simon. What shoes are you wearing in the second last pic. with your Army Fatigues and PS Oxford shirt. My choices of footwear here would be mine Moonstar LowBasket sneakers in a ChinoBeige & The Anglo Italians desert boots in a dark brown. Please let me know if your thoughts?
I’m wearing Alden LHS loafers in tan suede, but either of those would be fine – just different styles
Is this Oxford wearable in tropical countries in summer?
It’s a little personal, but perhaps not. It is heavier than most Oxfords deliberately
1)What is your opinion on Navy Oxford shirt?
I wouldn’t go for it myself. I’d prefer navy in linen perhaps, or a chambray work shirt
Is there any particular reason for not going with Navy Oxford but linen?
It’s just not the normal colour for an Oxford and looks a little strange often. Dark shirts in general are hard
Is your opinion the same for olive colour and that it would look better in linen than oxford?
Yes
I feel like a navy oxford shirt would look similar to the navy PS Friday Button-Down Polo. Anglo-Italian has a great one in what Simon would call “a true classic-menswear dark navy” :p
Personally I think they look and feel different – you’re more used to a navy jersey. But part of that is certainly personal
Hello Simon,
I’m creating a few cold-colour combinations and shirts seem to be a great way to get white into my wardrobe. I am having trouble deciding whether it is best to go for the PS Oxford shirt or Friday Polo. I am more inclined towards casual clothing (I plan to wear this under tweed blazers/chunky knitwear) and can’t determine which would be better placed. The Oxford fabric is presumably more slubby, and therefore casual, than the pique of the Friday Polo, but a shirt perhaps pushes things in the opposite direction. What do you suggest? Or to phrase it better – how do you decide which to go for when creating your cold-colour looks?
Many thanks.
Both are great John, but if you only have one I’d go for the oxford. It’s what I wear more and I think you’d find it more versatile. The polo is cut very like a shirt anyway, so it wouldn’t be that much more casual
Perfect, thanks Simon! I guess you can’t go wrong with a white shirt!
Dear Simon,
I am looking for 2-3 Oxford shirts in a casual and quite coarse fabric. I think that the PS oxford shirts would work for me at this end.
When I compare the measurements on your website with the L. Avitabile or Mazzarelli measurements (the RTW shirts that fit me best), I notice that your size S seems to be substantially fuller in the chest (107cm PS shirt, 103cm L. Avitabile, 100cm Mazzarelli) and waist (98cm PS shirt, 94cm Avitabile, 92cm Mazzarelli).
May I therefore ask if you have any feedback from slim customers (me 175cm, 67kg) that the PS shirts are too wide for them? Also, is there much difference between the Oxford fabric you use and L. Avitabile’s.
Kind regards,
Markus
Hi Markus,
Yes, the fabric is exclusive to us.
Have you noted the point on the product page about shrinkage? That’s why the shirts are cut a touch bigger and longer
Thank you. Sorry to bother you with a follow up: Does that mean that your Oxford fabric – as far as you are aware – shrinks more than others?
Most oxfords have some shrinkage in them, but yes ours does more than others because it’s that bit heavier, with more cotton to shrink
I have now ordered your striped oxford shirt in small. I will let you know how it fits. Have a good evening.
Markus.
I have several PS Oxfords and discovered that washing on cold, hand wringing and hanging to dry will prevent any shrinkage. Plus,they are easier to iron if damp. I’ve even washed on a wool wash and not had any shrinkage.
Mine get plenty of usage and they are always clean easily.
I have now received the striped PS Oxford shirt. Such a great piece of work, Simon, so that I immediately ordered the white one (plus the navy tee) and put myself on the waiting list for the blue one (and the black tee).
How lovely to hear Markus, I hope it serves you really well
Dear Simon,
I have started items from Permanent Style (Oxford shirts and the T-shirts) and I am taken very much by their quality.
However, I am not so convinced by the service. On 25 February 2023 (Order PS15630), I ordered the PS White Oxford in small and the tapered t-shirt in navy also in small. After quite a long wait, I finally received my package today.
While the accompanying order confirmation stated that the package should contain the above items, it indeed did contain two t-shirts, one in navy and one in white, but no PS oxford shirt.
I have written your support but could you also kindly have a look into this matter.
Markus
Hi Markus,
I’m very sorry to hear that. These mistakes can happen, but rarely, and I suspect the delay might to do with an issue the courier has had which is affecting many brands.
I’ll make sure the support team get back to you, and I will keep myself informed of the progress too. Thanks for flagging it up.
If you have any other specific issues feel free to email me directly
Thanks
Simon
Of course they do, and I understand that. I take this opportunity to reiterate that the PS Oxford shirt (I also previously ordered the striped version, which arrived) is fabulous. I really like the higher collar and the solid feel of the thicker fabric.
Thanks Markus