In the past year Davide Baroncini, of knitwear brand Ghiaia, has been putting together and posting some looks that really resonate with me.
Comfortable and relaxed, but with a really high taste level, they seem a long way from both the hype-driven and overly tight looks elsewhere. They’re deceptively simple: a few colours, classic pieces, but put together in a way that feels fresh and easy.
I first interviewed Davide three years ago, soon after Ghiaia launched, but we didn't have a chance to talk style - indeed, back then he didn’t post much about it, as his whole collection was sold through one department store and there was no e-commerce to promote.
So we arranged a time to talk over video, to discuss his style and what influences those looks.
Davide was in his house in California, where his wife and family had recently moved into, and actually the house his wife had grown up in. We spent a good few minutes talking about daughters and our respective families as a result, before getting into clothes.
“Both those things deeply affect how I dress though,” he says. “Moving to California was a big influence, as was being a father.
“In the US it’s much more of a thing to be a ‘Dad’. In Milan or elsewhere in Italy this doesn’t really happen. Here a dad has a different persona - he plays more, he does everything. The clothes reflect the fact I’m always running around picking things up, or playing with them.
Growing older makes you more relaxed too, he says, and I agree.
“When you’re young you’re so uncertain about everything - you need clothes to be perfect to have confidence in them,” Davide says.
“Professionally I grew up in Milano, and there it was particularly cruel. You’d show up to work, or to a family event, and if you weren’t dressed right you’d get a metaphorical slap in the face with a glove: ‘What’s that you’re wearing? What’s that button doing? Come on, get it together’. Everyone knew the right way to dress, and they weren’t afraid to tell others off.”
It feels a long way from Davide’s sunny TV room, which is where the look above was shot. What does that particular combination mean to him?
“This one feels like late summer, early autumn,” he says. “And it’s the kind of outfit I’ll wear all day long. I’m more comfortable with that now, living in America - I’ll go to the store in the morning, come back and work, go and see friends in the evening. In Italy I’d change but not here.”
The knit is Ghiaia’s cricket cardigan, quite loose and with a deliberately deep opening. The coat is there less for warmth (it’s California after all) and more just to have something, to have something.
“You know that feeling when you leave the house and feel you need something in your hands? Or like a politician, that needs to hold a pen or a piece of paper when they’re making a point. This is the same, the coat is something to have over the shoulders, or to carry. I feel more comfortable that way.”
“Oh and if you like the coat, watch Boomerang with Eddie Murphy. Man he looks good in that film.”
There’s a fair amount of Armani in Boomerang, and this second outfit feels particularly Armani.
“Giorgio wears navy on navy a lot, and it’s always elegant, always really clean. I always like to separate the two with a belt though.”
The V-neck knit is cotton, and this is relevant. “We sell cashmere and we sell cotton, but there’s something about a cotton knit that looks nice and old - elegantly aged - as soon as you put it on. Nothing looks more relaxed to me.
“I could do a day meeting in this, and roll my sleeves up; but wear it in the evening as well, maybe comb my hair back. Also I’m about 40 pounds overweight right now, so anything that hides the weight is good! Baggy pants and a sweater are the best.”
These outfits are ones I picked out from Davide’s feed because I liked them personally, or because I felt there was something unusual there to explore.
With the outfit above, I found the red and yellow interesting - they look great together, but the combination isn’t that classic. It’s not something I’d naturally do.
“You know what works there? The dustiness of the materials. If that were a silky knit or a superfine polo, it wouldn’t work. But they both look soft, washed out.
“That’s probably the greatest skill of a yarn supplier - their ability to colour the yarns in very specific ways. It’s really hard. It can change a knit from looking cheap and shiny, to dusty and deep.
“I’d say that apart from their harmoniousness - whether they’re both warm or cold - this is the most important thing for me in putting colours together.”
The overall look, for Davide, is Steve McQueen: practical, easy, riding his bike around the coast and then swimming in the sea. An elderly neighbour in Pasadena tells a story of seeing McQueen do just that.
Davide was obsessed with McQueen as a kid, and illustrates with a different story, of riding his Triumph from Milan to Amsterdam over a weekend, to start a job with Suit Supply. He arrived at 3am, freezing cold, almost hypothermic. It was the stupidest thing he’s ever done - but he felt like McQueen.
This next outfit is someone rather different. “This is a rich dude, LA all day long. He doesn’t give a fuck. He’s old money, done this forever, and genuinely doesn’t care,” says Davide. “The line between trying very hard and not trying at all, in a look, is very thin. But this guy legitimately doesn’t.”
He continues: “There aren’t many cities in the world where you can wear this. If you wore it in Milan, people would think you were crazy, or a tourist. But if you come to LA you’ll see a guy like this every day - on Paradise Cove in Malibu, popping out of a vintage Speedster with a big hairy dog.
“The look is rather messy, but it’s very conservative too - a navy crewneck, white shorts, camel coat. It’s all about the attitude, wearing a long coat over short shorts just because you need something in the morning.
“It can be quite chill here actually, by the water, even in the summer. Thank God, or I wouldn’t sell anything from May to September”
If you like these kinds of outfits as much as I do, the best way to see them all is actually on the shop page of the Ghiaia website here.
Feeling like Steve McQueen while doing “the stupidest thing I’ve ever done” certainly feels like a fitting tribute to a talented actor who is totally undeserving of the adulation that’s heaped upon him among the style-guy circle. Some interesting outfits and stories to go with them. How much more try-hard can an outfit be? The answer, according to the penultimate look, is none. None more try-hard. It’s going to drive the regular commenters mad.
Interestingly I think the thing about the last outfit, Alex, is that it doesn’t seem try hard at all on the right person in the right context. Just on a lot of other people. Of course, there are also always things to take from outfits other than copying them wholesale.
On McQueen, if you are separating the person from the style, I think he certainly deserves to be an icon. Though perhaps not quite at the level some put him at, given the simplicity of the style
On the outfit – I completely agree that there are things to take from it, and yes I’m sure on the right person, in the right context, it would be perfectly fine. However, I’d argue that look doesn’t work at all in the context Davide is arguing – the very act of attempting to put together a look like that with the aim of it being a study in not looking “try hard” as Davide puts it circles it right back around to being a total cliche for 99 percent of people attempting to pull this off as a “thrown together look”.
I know what you mean Alex, although the interesting thing is Davide isn’t making this up – he’s talking about actual people he knows, who actually look like they’re not trying hard, at least to him. So while it may certainly only be for some people, it is drawn from real life studies like that.
I really like McQueen look cause he managed to always look if not good at least better than most now. Of course he was a star, very good looking, with a great body and face and most of us lack some or many of these things that made his looks so nice.
It was the genuine and honest simplicity that made McQueen so stylish, the total opposite of the icons who are worshipped by the so-called “internet gentlemen”. He was a real racer and his own man.
Thank you Gary, but I’ve cut the second half of your comment as it was needlessly personal about another commenter. Please try to avoid that in future
McQueen was a man like any, plagued with insecurities and desperate to fit into the time’s idea of what masculinity represented, often manifesting in reprehensible behaviour to others. Saying he represented “genuine and honest simplicity” is a basic take on a highly mercurial figure. The need to strip him of those more troubling characteristics (which are what make him such a magnetic screen presence) to fit into this idea of him being ‘a good old boy who wore clothes with total authenticity and not a shred of doubt about his place in the world’ is the aspect that I find most troubling when he’s brought up in these sorts of discussions. It represents a lack of interest in the person as anything other than a clothes horse. At any rate, I imagine Simon would prefer this thread not to get completely sidetracked by this conversation, so I won’t go on about it.
I will never understand the craze for McQueen. But then again I didn’t live the the period.
I do find it a bit comical that it seems, in our very niche interest, people tend to go to the deepest end only to find…nothing, and come back decreeing that nothing matters anyway except attitude and stylishness (or lack thereof) by association.
Was it really all in vain?
I think the problem always is, And, that people talk in extremes, when everything is always nuanced.
Most people don’t care about quality, and they should do more.
But if you bury only into quality (as slightly nerdier guys have a habit of doing) and forget style, then you’ll never look good.
And on top of all of that, there’s an annoying layer of attitude, charm and how you wear things that some people just have more of, or at least has little to do with clothing.
I like some of these outfits from a styling point of view – but taken for themselves the clothes are overpriced basics, and tbh you can recreate these looks easily from J. Crew. But kudos to him if he manages to sell 500 USD cotton sweaters to Californian dads.
Yeah we’re not talking about the clothes themselves here Felix, just the looks.
agree, last time the brand was mentioned on PS, I thought the looks were simple and effective, so I looked at their online store. Then saw the prices and closed the tab. Sure nice clean styling, quality etc etc, but when things cost sometimes almost an order of magnitude more than equally good items from reputable makers, you are just yet another brand selling luxury italian branding itself, to much richer (than us italians) people. In other words, just another Brunello Cucinelli.
I admit I am a bit tired of seeing 900€ cachemire hoodies and 600€ canvas shoes. But such is life, I guess. Simon will probably respond (actually, I’ve just realized he indeed has) that we can be inspired by the looks without buying anything from Ghiaia, which I guess is true.
Good to know my responses almost don’t have to be actually written!
Davide of course came from Cucinelli, so the link is inevitable. However, I would say that not only are the products better than Cucinelli (in my limited experience) but it’s the styling that seems so much more current and relevant.
I actually did not know, or rather perhaps had forgot from your previous article, that he came from Cucinelli. Though it kind of speaks for itself that the similarity was so immediate in my mind.
I suppose I would agree the styling is better, though it’s pretty easy when Cucinelli still has models wearing tailoring that would fit someone 30cm shorter than they are, while Ghiaia shows no tailoring at all as far as I could find. I do like to finally see some wider legs after the suffocating trend of skinny ankles which unfortunately is still the norm in Italy, at least as far as menswear goes.
There’s also a bit more interesting yellow and red accents which, though nothing new by any means, still feels refreshing if one just came out from a Cucinelli look book convinced that all colours not in shades of beige had been outlawed.
Yes there’s no tailoring, but the fits are considerably more roomy and relaxed – not just the trousers but the knits too. There’s also more emphasis on cotton and materials that wear in well, unlike the more luxe look at Cucinelli.
I feel with Cucinelli that they’ve just got a bit stuck – there were always aspects of the style I didn’t like, but it hasn’t really changed in 10 years.
you know i find shocking, is the recent price hike at Saman Amel. im sure they have their (very valid) reasons, but gosh its a horrendous price hike.
@zo – can you give an example of this price hike? Are you referring to the RTW in their online shop or MTM pricing?
I’m fairly sure what ZO means are trousers in their online shop being 700 or so, whereas they used to be 4-500. I’ve no insight to whether prices have gone up equally in the MTM offering, but I was equally surprised to see some of the prices. But as ever, nobody is forcing anyone to purchase.
I’ve ordered MTM from SA for a couple of years, and I think trousers have gone from starting at €600 to starting at €700 during that time.
Suits / Jackets seem to have increased more substantially. The Toscana line now appears to cost what The Napoli line did a year ago. A Toscana suit used to be about €2000, and now the jacket alone is about €2500. All depending on fabric choice, of course. Still worth it, IMO.
Do you guys see this cost increase with other bespoke and MTM makers as well?
There’s certainly been an increase among many, reflecting a few things including cost prices. I’d say about 20% in the past five years among most, but particularly at the higher end
I got the impression that SA is pivoting from a tailoring house to something more akin to a luxury fashion label that is mostly MTO/M.
When I visited them, they were talking about just how much they’re focused on wardrobe management and it gave the impression that there are clients coming in with budgets north of 10k and asking them how they would start with that. It’s perhaps also reflected in their affinity for pure cashmere from Loro Piana and such.
Considering the fashion label like pricing of their jeans on Mr. P, I felt they were keen to be alongside the likes of Purple Label, Brioni, Tom Ford etc
I am not familiar with Saman Amel but their price increases (cited above) doesn’t look wrong to me and is in line with what a responsible business should be putting through.
To put it into context, inflation is 10%+ in Europe
EUR/ GBP / SEK is down 5-15% versus USD, which is what most yarns are priced in.
There has also been persistent supply chain issues in high end manufacturing, which means overall, cost prices are running c. 20-25% higher
Retailers that aren’t putting price increases through are likely pressuring their suppliers (look at Boohoo and M&S delaying deliveries and extending payment terms). I don’t think anyone wants European luxury garment manufacturing under any further pressure if we still want this shrinking industry to be around in a decade.
I’m not too familiar with how their pricing has evolved but I believe most of this increase happened already before the recent inflation? They were always at the priciest end of MTM though admittedly their product and styling stand out.
Also, I believe any increase in yarn prices that you cited must be on top of the basic charge. That is usually passed on to the customer in any tailoring commission.
RTW and MTM both. I am sure there are factors that justify the price hike…doesnt make it any less painful for the consumer. You just have to look at their RTW offering on Mr Porter (previous season and current season) to see how the prices have changed. And obviously the prices on their RTW website too. I reckon what RAM says is correct…they’re positioning themselves as a luxury fashion label, their lookbooks, styling, website etc, indicate it.
Now that is an interesting story. I’d love to see the clothes on a person, because from the photos I just cannot imagine the look in real life. E.g., the outfit with the cricket cardigan is either very fusty (beige-neutral all over, cardigan, sandals with socks) or very relaxed.
Most of these are straight out of the McQueen/Kennedy playbook. A Google image search will provide plenty of examples of these types of looks in the wild.
the style is nice – a more wearable version of cuccinelli. one side point though, the website is horrific for actually buying anything.
i liked the look of one of the jackets but after a few minutes of scrolling random outfits with no clue which one was for sale until i hovered, i gave up.
Very nice. I’ll be a first-time father next year and have been anticipating how I might continue to dress more casually but in ways I still find interesting and enjoyable (even if I’m parked at home all day). While it may not necessarily be Ghiaia there’s good inspiration to be gleaned-I feel that it follows a similar line to modern Drake’s, though in this case a bit less eccentric.
Certainly enough here for me to mix and match. I like the navy crew and the faded red.
I think you require a touch of California sun to appreciate them at their best, but the 50s vibe is one I can work with for inspiration. Particularly enjoy yellow.
I get a similar vibe when I feel a collar on my neck-I know I’m dressed.
In my younger and more impressionable days I bought Cucinelli. The worst case of buyer’s remorse I have ever suffered.
Just when I thought that all the watch blogs couldn’t cram any more Steve McQueen and Paul Newman down my throat, I read this. And yeah, I’m pretty sure a guy who “genuinely isn’t trying at all” wouldn’t buy and wear expensive clothes from an obscure brand only known to people who most defintely try very hard.
I think you miss the point Andreas – it’s not about where the clothes come from, indeed the most striking thing in that look, the coat, isn’t from Ghiaia. It’s about the looks, and it’s that look the comment references
Living in Southern California, I think these looks personify the relaxed and casual style of the region. Yes the price points are high, but he’s marketing to an upscale mature client Clearly, there is a customer who will pay more for quality and a look that he wants to embrace
Some of the comments seem a bit harsh.
I agree Tim, I think sometimes the reaction to looks like these is a little knee-jerk.
The comments here have been strange. Been following the brand for a a while and love the styling and Davide himself is a great follow on IG. Sure the pieces are expensive (out of my personal budget at this stage i My life), but i feel the same people balking at the prices are the same who see no problem with a $100 tee, or multiple hundreds on raw denim jeans or a scarf. Im not judging those decisions either but the lack of self awareness is strange. Looking forward to seeing Ghiaia grow
Looking at these examples, and having stayed in Southern California for my first year of college, it seems to me these ensembles are ideas of what someone might choose to wear. Milano translated, so to speak.
Nicely put William
I like the yellow coat – the fasteners look very well executed. I didn’t see it for sale though? I like the hover over feature where you can see different layering’s – but agree with the comment already made that it is very difficult to visualize without seeing it worn by an actual human, especially the subtleties and fit of these particular garments.
I find one of the dangers of this kind of dressing is that I often find myself spending a lot yet feeling like I don’t look quite as good as friends who’ve executed a similar look through astute vintage shopping! Not everyone has time to do this though and I suppose that is what the premium is for!
The coat isn’t one of theirs, Simon.
As commented above, I don’t think you need to spend lots for a similar look either, that’s one reason I find the looks appealing. It’s about the colour mixtures, the fabrics (eg a heavy cotton rather than a wool or cashmere in the summer) and about the cut (eg the shorts). Spend some time in cheaper stores with those looks in mind, perhaps, and vintage shopping with your friends if they’re good at that!
The coat looks like it could be from Fays
I agree that the looks are good/interesting. I get a slight vintage vibe (80s/90s nautical/riviera looks – which I presume they are aiming for) – however, like others have mentioned I find the pricing rather ridiculous. You
d get 25% VAT + possible import duties on top of the prices listed when ordering to europe.That being said - I find its rather difficult actually to find e.g. a good RTW navy blue cotton crew neck sweater and I`d like to know where such “basics” could be found!? Preferably from easily accessible retailers that have several physical shops spread around in european cities!Good quality cotton – fine yarn, heavier weight – is not easy to find, and not that commercial either, so most places don’t do it. Anderson & Sheppard has some lovely ones, Rubato did some previously, but if you want more accessible you’re best checking Ralph Lauren probably
You mean ralph lauren pima cotton ones?
I don’t have a model in mind Martins, it’s just a general suggestion
Pima cotton is not model but how Ralph Lauren calls that particular cotton. especially until last year’s prices it was my to go cotton knitwear for tx maxx prices.
I have a grey and navy blue cotton sweater from Asket (ordered online and called “The Cotton Sweater”), which I very much like. Because the price is under EUR 100, not much can go wrong.
Thanks Markus. Obviously that won’t be the kind of knit we’re talking about here in terms of fineness or thickness, but a good way to try a cotton knit nevertheless
There’s a lot of brands selling cotton knitted t-shirts, which was my discovery of the year definitely, and that I would recommend over heavy cotton l/s knits anyway, much more wearable in summer/spring imho.
I have 2 heavy ones from yeossal, yes unfortunately had to pay vat & duties, plus 2 very light ones from Gran Sasso. Cavour and Berg&Berg also stock some.
Thanks And. Those are nice and I love them too. I wouldn’t say it really gets the same look though – the sweater has to be much chunkier than those tees to work, and it is something very different wearing a long-sleeved knit with shorts than with short sleeves
Given that the better of these looks could come from a JCrew catalogue this is where I would look: https://www.jcrew.com/nl/m/mens/categories/clothing/sweaters/pullover/heritage-cotton-crewneck-sweater/MP431?display=standard&fit=Classic&color_name=navy&colorProductCode=BI841
Thanks Felix, useful link, though obviously I disagree on the looks. In fact, these would be a little too loose, perhaps a little too old even for the J Crew audience
If I wanted to emulate the looks, I (as an online shopper) would go straight to Yoox and look at products from Drumohr and perhaps also Cruciani, Malo and Gran Sasso. All do luxury cashmere and silk items but also cotton knits including heavier ones. Drumohr especially will have items that fit the look.
I’m probably not telling you anything you didn’t know already but Davide’s shop in Pasadena is in a London-styled arcade. It’s literally minutes away from Wellema Hatters, the Rose Bowl (w. its famous flea market) and the Huntington Library & Gardens with its Gainsborough’s and what not.
Thanks Randall, yes we discussed that. Davide said he specifically set up there because he loved the Burlington Arcade in London so much, and that arcade was based on the Burlington.
I do hope to come out to LA again sometime and visit them all
I neglected to mention Freenote Cloth in nearby Highland Park, they cut and sew denim and workwear locally. Let me know if you need a Sherpa when you visit LA.
Nice dog
Love these looks – managing to make such casual simplicity interesting and subtly cool in a way that feels simultaneously classic yet still a bit unexpected. Respect for Davide’s styling skill and taste!
I love the looks with more contrast – the more monochrome/ beige ones don’t appeal really, They remind me of the breaking bad beige party. But I can see they work!
The coat with the shorts is fun – in winter here in the UK I’ll often chuck on a long PWVC coat over shorts to pick up a croissant and a pint of milk after a Saturday morning run in December. Keeps my legs warm without the faff of having to pull on track suit bottoms
The casual elegance seems to fit in nicely with the California vibe and mild climate. (I say this as someone who grew up there prior to moving to the Old World). Perfect for someone in Napa, Malibu or Santa Barbara with a vintage Speedster who has outgrown (SoCal-born) Vans shoes, though perhaps it will look out of place in Paris, Berlin or Madrid. Of course, I would not have predicted 5 years ago that middle-aged men in these cities would be wearing trainers, so one never knows…
Simon,
thanks for informing the community about the variety of brands, but to be honest, this one is not so interesting. Looks very overpriced for what it is, and thr storyline behind the brand is not that inspiring. The looks themselves are also quite dull. Looks like a maketing exercise, not real craft or art.
It would be great to know of real artisans and creators, especially from “developing markets” (Latin America, Asia, Africa). I feel those unsung heroes are more athentic, more creative, they deserve to be known. For example, I have tried various high end knitwrar brands (Fedeli cashmere, Drumohr, Della Ciana, Inis Meain, etc.), but the pieces I cherish the most are tje highest quality alpaca sweaters from Kuna (firmerly known as Alpaca 111) from Peru.
Also, could be intetesting to read about Artknit of Italy.
Thank you AA. As made clear in the article and in the comments since, this piece is not about the products or the story behind the brand. It is about the looks, which I love but sound like they are not your style.
I agree that those smaller makers deserve highlighting, and I love to hear about new ones. However, I do find that it is usually style where many of them fall down. Not putting outfits together, as here, but cut and yarn and shape.
Artknit looks interesting, I hadn’t heard of them. At those prices though we are talking about a different quality level.
I really do admire the effortless styling. It’s not easy to achieve. Thanks for introducing this.
On the topic of pricing though, I would be curious to see an article on how much to expect to spend on an item, let’s say cashmere crewneck jumpers in a standard 2-ply weight if you want to reach a certain quality plateau.
I am bringing this up because I feel that quality and pricing is a double-edged thing. You could always point to Uniqlo and say anyone who is shelling out twice that amount is just being ridiculous or terribly fussy. On the other hand, there are many brands who keep charging higher and higher within the cosied wrappings of the quality label that becomes so hard to judge. Is that just different or actually better in some well defined way; does it have to cost that much more? I know you have mentioned the law of diminishing returns but I have missed something more comprehensive.
Just now for instance Rubato has released some cashmere knitwear, which to my understanding is a slightly modified William Lockie selection but the prices are twice as much. Is the idea to compete with LVMH margins or did I miss something I wondered.
Hey Ram,
I can certainly do something more comprehensive, but in brief:
– Uniqlo is great value for what it is, but poor quality. See expert analysis on their knits here
– In general, the more important thing is the type of company you’re dealing with, rather than just price. A luxury company, that does campaigns, advertising, has luxury stores, will always be more expensive for the same quality. Ghiaia is aiming to be among those. Rubato is not.
– There are certainly diminishing returns with higher quality, but that’s inevitable. Techniques become rare, makers specialised.
– Among the things you pay for with someone like Rubato is unique cut, unique details, and exclusive materials. All of those things are more expensive. If you just want a straight-fitting, normal mid-grey crewneck, you can certainly get that elsewhere, and Scottish makers like Lockie (or often better, their resellers) are a good bet.
Thank you Simon for taking the time to open these up. If I may further comment on them:
— I have read your article on UNIQLO and it certainly didn’t give me the impression that you concluded them as poor quality. I have some odd pieces from them, mostly from student years, which have still stood up pretty well. The finishing and cuts are pretty basic but could you really call them poor quality?
— I completely agree on that point though I think there are brands which just have inefficient processes or very high running costs because of their own lifestyles, approaches towards things which don’t justify the price. It’s an assumption that’s hard to prove or disprove. I suppose with Adret, for instance you can see that. On the other hand I could also see a brand like S E H Kelly selling at 2x if they want to and justify the price.
— Might I ask what exactly is so unique about Rubato cashmere knitwear to justify that cost. I am not sure the materials are unique. The cut certainly is different but provided that some brands do offer varying lengths and boxier fits, does that necessarily cost so much or is it more like with some Swiss watch companies where it’s a matter of what they can charge. I couldn’t comment on any particular details Rubato might have. But in a way everyone from Cos to Gobi Cashmere does offer a variety of models which could be considered unique. My Johnston’s cashmere jumper with a v-neck had a rather boxy cut too.
Sorry about the long comment, I just wanted to be as clear as possible in order to establish what I am trying to discern.
– Uniqlo: It depends entirely what you mean by ‘poor’. What is your level? What are your expectations? They are certainly worse quality than everything we cover here, and everything made in Scotland.
– No, that’s not the case in my experience at all. Lifestyle makes very little difference to a business of any decent size, and inefficiencies are small and reduce over time. Adret is expensive because they want to build an entire workshop from scratch in another country, hire everyone and pay them very well and train them, have a no-expense spared shop in Mayfair, do tiny runs of pieces, use unusual and rare fabrics, and sell nothing online. You could argue with all those choices, but they are by far the biggest reasons for the prices, not whim or greed or anything else more cynical. With almost every brand I cover, I know this from knowing the people – not looking at it from the outside.
– The Rubato yarns are not stock service or regular, they are exclusive, which is much more expensive. The cut is not just boxier or shorter, it is pretty much unique in its V-shape, and setting that up at a factory is not cheap. You do and also should, pay something for design – in many ways that’s the hardest thing to quantify in clothing. Including the details – a thicker rib on the neck, a higher back neck, a longer cuff. Johnstons or any regular Scottish spends no time whatever on these kinds of things. And if you don’t want or value them, that’s absolutely fine. But great design is a huge part of the beauty and the joy of clothes.
No worries at all talking about this, it all helps me figure out how to write articles that present this in a clearer way for everyone.
Thank you again for taking the time to this! Just a few clarifications on my part that I hope offers some insight for your future articles.
— Regarding Uniqlo I quite agree that it’s well below the refinement and craft level of things you usually cover here and the basic cardigans etc are not the most interesting designs.
But when using words like ‘poor’ I try to be a little more objective like, ‘poor’ is something that spills so terribly after a few wears or starts tearing up soon. ‘Decent’ is something that lasts a bit longer and has a decent make. And neither should leave colour casts.
Anything above it could be varying levels of luxury, extremely durable craftsmanship etc. Something could also have great design and poor quality of make & finishing like a Must de Cartier from the 70s to 90s. Otherwise, if every flannel shirt is compared to bespoke options at the highest level of craft, I feel that it becomes unhelpful. My Muji flannel shirt is by no means of poor quality in my eyes but it’s not any high level of craft or design either. It works perfectly for it’s purpose.
— Thanks for your insight on this topic, I trust you on this. Just that from the outside, without much understanding of the people, it just looks unconvincing sometimes. And I meant to put Adret as the example of a brand where I could immediately see where the price comes from and I have never suspected them of profiteering. Rubato on the other hand, just has an online store and none of these is obvious.
— And thanks for further clarification on the Rubato cashmere products. One reason for this scepticism was also the fact that their trousers also seemed surprisingly pricey when I compare to the likes of Studio D’artisan and Momotaro. I found it hard to believe it could be much better in quality, if even slightly. Perhaps it’s the design and exclusive materials that lead to this.
But that’s harder to evaluate like you said. There is a lot of design in products from the Japanese brands too, perhaps more in many cases. The materials are often unique as well. The runs must be bigger. But does that really explain the prices? I suppose it then just becomes a very subjective evaluation of how much one appreciates something enough to pay a certain amount and not much to do with any objective quality/design to price comparison.
Lastly I’m puzzled by what you meant that Johnston’s and such spend no time on design. I think whether or not one likes the outcome, most brands do spend some time on design, even Uniqlo does it with their U range. In my personal experience, the camelhair cardigan from Lockie had a very particular design, the Jamieson’s striped cardigan had a particular drop shoulder, roomy design and please also see the red sweater I was referring to from Johnston’s. I dislike their styling and the lower v-neck but it’s an uncommon and in my eyes, gorgeous statement piece in 3ply.
Thanks Ram.
– Agree on basic quality points, but with the Uniqlo example I linked to, I also don’t feel that a good quality knit should be using treatments to avoid pilling that would normally happen with that quality, or be deliberately using less yarn so creating something more shapeless and that won’t last as well.
– Gotcha on Adret. Yes I can completely see how that comes across with fashion in general. Designer brands seem so expensive, and the kinds of things we’re talking about here – exclusive yarns, paying over time for a design that happens once – are really hard for any brand to communicate. So they don’t.
– On Rubato chinos and other Japanese brands, it depends a lot on the particular fabric they use, and again whether it is something they have to commission exclusively. Of course Japanese brands are often as expensive too (eg Real McCoys)
– Uniqlo is a design company, Johnston’s is (or has largely been) a producer. My point isn’t related to Uniqlo. You may have found that sweaters from those Scottish makers have cuts that feel different to you, but they will have been that way for a long time. There is no original modern design going on. Again not good or bad necessarily, just different.
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense. I can clearly see what you mean with these terms.
And one small thing regarding the formatting — the paragraph spacing disappeared just after posted it. Not sure what happened. Could be something on my end too.
Hmm, ok thanks Ram, good to know
Hey,
quick question out of curiosity about Rubto’s cashmere (without wanting to participate in this discussion): Are only the colors exclusive to Rubato or also the cloth itself? If the latter, what makes it different?
Well this isn’t really cloth Jeldrik, as it’s knitted not woven.
But if the yarn colours aren’t used by other brands, then the knitted material isn’t either?
I don’t know the details of the cashmere being used, or the knit style or density, but it’s unlikely any of those are unique.
Hi Simon,
you mentioned the finish of e.g. the Uniqlo sweater above. I think finishes applied to wool but also to cotton as in cloth for shirts would make a very interesting topic for an article. Since we wear those garments on your skin it would be interesting to know how they are (chemically) treated. Might also be interesting from a sustainability perspective. What is used to finish the garments and how relevant is it for us from a health and sustainability perspective? Are better made garments less treated? What are alternatives to chemical treatments?
Best
j
Thanks John, nice idea
Cloth, Yarn… I guess this goes back to my lack of English skills.
I actually meant the density of the material (or something similar). I come up with it because they write on the website:
“Woven on old looms the hand is dense, yet soft, reminiscent of what cashmere used to feel like in times past.”
That implies to me that there is something different in the manufacturing process than similar products.
Especially with expensive cashmere, I am often unsure what really distinguishes quality and what is just marketing. And accordingly whether it’s worth paying the extra price (I really like Rubato’s classic knitwear btw).
Ah I see, yes they are knitting more densely and on a different loom – some others do this, it’s not unique, but it is unusual and means higher quality in that way
Oh, and thank you for your quick answer.
Pleasure
Sorry to cut in here Simon but how do you feel about the quality of Rubato cashmere and whether that is justified in the price difference with their lambswool..
I like the wool ones and though it’s on the pricier side still is fairly priced with the style and the colors also look so lovely and unique. But the cashmere has the same model still the price is much higher. Didnt understand what you had meant in the comments about them being unique, looks much like standard colors with different names?
The yarn colours aren’t that standard, you don’t really see them around – though sometimes that’s better appreciated in person.
The cashmere is very good and I’m sure it’s worth the price difference, though actually I wear the lambswool far more.
Honestly, I think these clothes and the outfits in general are wonderful – I don’t see the similarities to Cucinelli at all – Armani, yes – and that’s to be applauded. The wonderful large, pleated trousers, roomy jumpers and a beautiful, relaxed elan that has considerable spezzatura.
I’ve been in NY for the past 3 months (I’m from London) and I’ve spent a lot of time touring all and more than the vintage shops you posted recently, Simon. I’ll be returning to London with 3 vintage Giorgio Armani items (including two beautiful, raglan shoulder overcoats) from the 80s – there simply isn’t anything like it today.
The Armani ‘gene’ if you want to describe it like that isn’t for everyone but is present in the Ghiaia line here, and I think it’s exemplified in some ways (perhaps more maturely) by your post on Richard Burke in Friends which really is a beautiful reference point on how to dress wonderfully (https://www.permanentstyle.com/2021/11/richard-burke-style-hero.html).
It’s also seen (more youthfully and stylistically) in your article on how to dress like André Larynoh (https://www.permanentstyle.com/2021/08/colour-size-and-drama-how-to-dress-like-andre-larnyoh.html).
As I approach my late 40s I feel that Armani and its close modern siblings are the right reference point for relaxed, louche, wonderfulness and I’ll be pursuing it over all else. It’s a shame that I leave NY on Thursday and won’t have time to grab a pair of Ghiaia’s pleated trousers. Many thanks for bringing this brand to my attention.
Thanks for the reference Will, yes couldn’t agree more
im a sucker for design, and i’ve managed to nab a few 80s/early90s Armani items, including a couple of overcoats, and I couldnt agree more with your comments. I find them highly stylised, yet very easy to wear. my wife calls them my ‘Home Alone’ coats. i also nabbed a suit in a very decent condition for like £30…again its highly stylised (like in the richard burke link above) and is in worsted wool, so am finding it difficult to work into my wardrobe and ‘modernise’ it without looking like a runway model…but I shall keep trying and get there one day!
It has been fascinating to read the discussion here. I did find the looks interesting. I am a huge fan of the “sailing look”, where the tones are light and neutral and then accented by that wonderful yellow coat. Vintage chinos and canvas shoes are a staple for me so great to get some inspiration.
However, I must say that like some other readers, brands like this make me rather uncomfortable and get to the heart of a key dilemma for me in menswear. Worth noting that I am writing as a teacher and as such, I’m aware my income is substantially lower than many PS readers. I am fine with that. I chose my profession and love it. I also love great clothing – I buy lots of vintage and second hand. I am also very happy to save for a year to buy the right piece from the right company. This seems relevant because there is a huge tension between brands who offer quality and design at the “right price”, are upfront about why things cost what they do and those who lean into a form elitism that I find lacking in taste. I would submit that brands like Brycelands are safely on the right side of this dichotomy and Ghaiai are on the wrong – their branding and pricing is simply prohibitive of anyone who is not in a financial elite. This is not helped by the fact they are based in LA, one of the most unequal cities on the planet, where the super-rich live just several blocks away from the poorest. As far as I am concerned, the geographical distance between the Rose Bowl and Ghaiai may be small, but every other difference is vast – I know where I’d rather buy my clothes.
Finally, I submit to fathers in the UK (as a father of two) that the first purchase should be a serious pair of jeans (plenty of good advice on PS regarding products) – they will survive everything and age with your children.
Whilst I like this aesthetic, I have to say it doesn’t quite fit with my recollection of having children, and certainly young children. I think the biggest concern with young children is that cloths need to be machine-washable and washed regularly. Regretfully, despite liking quality clothes, this period of my life coincided with the worst clothing I have ever worn (albeit generally behind closed doors!). Things must be different in California!
I think the point is that it helps if the clothes can put up with a little physical punishment, and then yes be fine with being washed often. A good chino or oxford shirt should be like that – better when it’s been washed and worn 20 times than when it was new.
In fact, good knitwear should be the same, even if it’s not as tough and harder to wash.
I think these looks are very nice and wearable. Nothing groundbreaking, but a nice take on classics. In general it definitely seems like the 80s and 90s are making a come back and I think we can stand to embrace the good parts of it, like more play on volume and proportions.
And I think they all highlight the key x-factor of looking good in anything: comfort. The clothes and the looks doesn’t look contrived (to me). They look comfortable and loved. I’m all for a crisp navy knit, but the way navy cotton fades is quite nice. Doesn’t matter if you’re wearing a suit or jeans and a sweater, if you’re not comfortable it shows.
As a father of a 3-year old, the my playground clothing usually consists of chinos, a pique shirt/long sleeved t-shirt/oxford and a fleece, roll neck etc. depending on the temperature. And these looks would fit right in there, as well as a pub run or coffee with a friend.
I love the Ghiaia styling, it’s really nice to see the quality of Italian product styled and presented in a manner thats more relaxed and less formal than many of the classic/family run firm, which as Davide says is this California influence. It reminds me a bit of the easy way someone like Antonio Ciongoli of Eidos (now Eighteen East) used to wear his formal clothing. On the price, I think people haven’t caught up to the fact that the raw materials, shipping and production costs going through the roof in the past two years. Power to run factories, ships and planes to send raw materials etc. have all shot up 10-20% and the costs have gone up accordingly. Even dependable if a little staid Scottish cashmere has gone from being around £250 or so for 2ply to closer to £400.
Given some of the comments about price, are you able to explain what makes quality cashmere knitwear vs the mediocre vs the less good? I’ve read old cashmere was better. Also seen reference to ply without knowing what it really means. Is there a way to tell quality by feel or some other classification? Seems to be huge price differences, abs actually I like the look of the stuff here so if it is of high quality I’d buy it)
Sure, happy to, perhaps it needs a fuller article. A few quick points maybe:
– The quality here is certainly very good
– The thing that makes it more expensive than other some other good Italian brands is mostly the type of company (more luxury, doing wholesale)
– Ply isn’t anything to do with quality, it’s just the thickness of the sweater really, from the thickness of the yarn
– But density of knitting is significant, and is the reason Scottish knits usually last better than Italian but don’t feel as soft to begin with
– That’s also affected by finishing on them, making them fluffier at the start on purpose. The lack of this finishing and the density of the knit is the reason old knitwear was seen as better (eg see ‘bare finish’ Ballantyne etc)
– The thing that cheap knits do more is use poor quality yarn, and more treatments, as discussed with Uniqlo
For the more techinical aspects, like ply, there is a guide to knitwear here which will be filled out over this year as well
Can you elaborate a little more on the price impact of the company being a luxury company engaging in wholesale?
As an industry outsider I’d love to hear the mechanics of it all
Thanks, perhaps that would be good to do in another piece, but essentially, if you’re selling wholesale then you need to sell to a department store at a price that means both of you can make a profit. If your cost price is 1, you might sell to them at 1.5, and they sell at 3 (plus tax).
But if you do that, the price you sell in your own shop also has to be 3, so it doesn’t look like you’re undercutting them.
You take the much lower margin selling wholesale, by the way, because they often buy bigger volumes, and usually buy everything up front, so it’s a guaranteed sale. Unlike your own stock, where you might never sell through all of it, you don’t know
Does anyone know where he got the Outerwear from? Especially the Fireman’s Jackets and other 3/4 long coats. They look so nice and I want to try them so I can get into this kind of style. In the LA Boutique they present also very nice ones as far as I can tell! Thank you very much
They’re vintage Amon, beyond that I don’t have more
Thanks Simon, I will need to go on a hunt for one of those…