One of the reasons jacket fits and styles are so hard to describe is they cannot easily be put into numbers.
Trousers, by comparison, are pretty straightforward.
From the shoe up, there is: circumference at the trouser opening or bottom, at the knee, and then at the fork or thigh.
There might be subtle variations in between these (particularly from iron work), but in general you can draw a straight line from one to the other, and describe the line of the leg.
Above the fork there is the circumference at the seat (bum) and then the waist. These are more a case of comfort and fit rather than style.
And above the waist there is the height of the trouser – usually described as the rise, from the fork to the top of the waistband.
In this post – in response to reader requests – I’ll set out what I usually choose in terms of those first three measurements (bottom, knee, thigh), in order to describe the style of the trousers. Rise can be left for another day.
I checked four types of trouser I have and have covered on the site, in preparation for this post:
- My Whitcomb & Shaftesbury tailored trousers (covered recently here)
- My Cerrato tailored trousers (a decent proxy for all the Italian trousers I have)
- My ready-made Incotex chinos (my go-to chino, their classic fit)
- My bespoke Levi’s jeans (slimmer than some of my jeans, but still a decent proxy)
Interestingly, although these go from very formal trousers to very casual, there wasn’t much variation except in the denim.
The average was the Whitcomb & Shaftesbury trouser (above), which measured:
- Bottom: 19cm (7.5 inch, diameter)
- Knee: 24cm
- Thigh: 32cm
Cerrato (shown top) was also 19cm at the bottom, but a little narrower at the knee and thigh, by half a centimetre each time.
So Marco clearly cuts a little closer to the thigh, going in a little more sharply under the seat before running down through the leg.
Interestingly, it is this part of the cut, at the thigh, that I think often determines whether a trouser looks old-fashioned or old-mannish. You can have a wide-legged, swinging Oxford bag, but if it is cut relatively close here, it avoids the old comfort-oriented look.
Of course, the further you go up the leg, the less room there is for style, and the more is constrained by your actual legs and by comfort.
The bottom of the trouser could be narrowed by 2cm and still fit OK; but if the thigh was 2cm narrower, it would be very restrictive when you sat down.
(The Pommella trousers, shown above, are perhaps the narrowest I have in this respect.)
My Incotex chinos (above) were actually slightly wider at the bottom, at 19.5cm, which is not what I was expecting. But they had less taper than the others, with the knee measurement at 23.5cm.
My Levi’s (below) were the only ones that were substantially narrower. The bottom here was 17.5cm, and the knee 21cm.
A narrower leg can be better suited to casual trousers like jeans, where elegance and straight, clean lines are less of a priority.
And narrower trousers do tend to look slightly younger – an association that is of course highly relative, dependent on social context, and changes over time; but still cannot be ignored.
That said, today I would have my jeans slightly wider; a new pair are being cut with an opening of 18 cm.
All this will hopefully be useful to those many readers that asked about what to say when their tailor asks about such things.
But it must be remembered that these measurements are also relative to the customer.
We’ve already noted how little room there is for variation in the thigh, but even at the bottom of the trouser, the opening needs to be in proportion.
A man with a very big waist (mine measures 33 inches, or 84cm) will look silly if his trouser tapers aggressively to a 16cm opening. He will need a slightly wider leg.
And a taller man can arguably also get away with more taper, as there is more leg in which to do it.
Shoe size is also often used as a reference for how wide the leg opening should be.
Personally I think this is over-emphasised, as the correlation between shoe size and height or weight is not that strong, and those two things are more important.
There are other variables, of course, such as the rise of the trouser, where a man tends to carry his weight, and so on. These together make it impossible to create a calculation that spits out an optimum leg line.
Tailors often have rules to go by – such as the knee being two inches bigger than the bottom – but these are rough guides and are expected to change at the first fitting, when both tailor and customer look at how they like the overall shape.
I would encourage readers to do that too, and only use my measurements as a single reference point, entirely dependent on my physical measurements.
I am, since you ask, just over 6 foot tall (183cm), measure 33 inches around the waist, and hover around 12 stone (76kg).
A bit personal, but I’ll allow it.
Simon
If you don’t mind – where do you carry your weight? I am a very similar build (pretty much exact same height, 31/2 inch waist and 77 kg). I carry a little weight around midriff but am pretty lean. You weight less but have a larger waist – which confuses me a bit!
If anywhere, it’s at the mid-riff too, on the tummy.
I should have been clear, though, that the waist measurement I gave is really the hips – where my trousers sit, in the middle of the hip bone. Not at the natural waist, where the belly button roughly is
I agree that ultimately it depends on the shape/size of the wearer and would add that the seat and thigh dimensions will have to be slightly more generous if the trouser has pleats rather than a flat front.
I know you are going to post a separate piece in rise, which is a fundamental measure if a trouser is going to be in proportion to its wearer. However, a quick look at the trousers you feature in your piece suggest to me that you need to lengthen your front rise a touch to compensate for the curve in your lower back.
Thanks. I have tried over the years many permutations of the front rise being higher and lower, however, and it doesn’t work if the front rise is raised. It would perhaps look better with the waistband more horizontal, but it doesn’t work unless the rise is a lot higher and is on the natural waist. Or I wear braces.
Simon’s rise would be around 22.5cm. This rule works for me 90% of the time when drafting a client’s jeans. (It’s obvoiusly just a guide and you add or substract a cm depending on the pant’s design)
Your Waist | Your rise
71cm 21cm
76cm 21cm
81cm 22cm
86cm 23cm
91cm 24cm
96cm 25cm
101cm 26cm
Is it possible to have trousers altered to reduce the rise if you think it is too high?
Good question, I’m not sure. It would be a big operation if it were possible, as you’d have to remake the whole pockets. Oh, and of course the rear pocket could be weirdly near the waistband. That wouldn’t be good
Yes, though that might be the case, which is a pity.
Will be interested to read the post on trouser rise when it comes.
In your opinion, would it be possible to increase the rise instead?
No, not really…
Hi Simon,
May sound like a strange question but where do you measure the thigh?
Also I have often seen hip measurements given, typically across the bottom of the fly. Is this synonymous with the seat measurement? For someone with wide hips this is something I am careful with with RTW otherwise pockets tend to billow out…..
Sam
It does vary between tailors and between measurement systems, but here the thigh measurement is taken at the bottom of the fork (where the trousers split into two legs). Many would take that measurement a little lower, more at the widest point of the thigh. I have tried to indicate the position on the photo at the top.
The seat measurement tends to be at the widest point of the seat, wherever that may be
Hi Simon,
I have been browsing your website and looking at various articles on trousers but I’ve found that you don’t very often add photos of the seat, or putting it another way, photos that show the fit from the rear. You seem to favour the side on or front view in the photography. Is there a specific reason for this as I think it would be incredibly helpful to have more shots of the back too?
Best regards,
J
No, not really. More that I just can’t do every angle, and the front tends to be what people prioritise most, while the side tends to show the line of the leg more easily, given the crease
Useful article, thanks.
A nitpick, if I may: I know that in this site you try (successfully, IMHO) to reconcile more ‘permanent’ stylishness with a sense of being ‘with the times’ (i.e., reasonably fashionable) but I was a little bit surprised by the ‘old man’ / ‘old-mannish’ comment relating to trouser width.
Not least because, long before high-end tailored garments like these are worn out, fashions will inevitably have swung in some other direction, no?
Thanks. I think (as discussed in this piece) it’s about different trends that last different lengths of time. The trend or tendency for large, slightly sloppy corduroys and moleskins to look ‘old-mannish’ is one that goes across one or two generations, so is measured in multiples of decades. I don’t think my trousers will last that long.
There are much shorter term fashions that last 6 months to a couple of years, but they don’t tend to affect menswear in this way. It’s more about more obvious things – big trainers, sweat pants etc
Excellent article with wonderful trouser diagram at head. I’m in favor of photographs of rear, too.
The old man trouser look is well-known and ugly.
I believe that “updating” my pants and reducing the width of their bottoms to 8.25” is not at all “old man/ old mannish”. It is a good compromise for expensive cloth meant to last several decades, which also shows that I don’t follow trends. In a few years, when the 7”-7.5” trend is over, my pants will still be current. Nowadays my new tailor in Chicago is cutting the bottoms for me at 8.25”. And they look great. Let’s not forget that bigger tailors with a solid reputation and tradition have their own style and would almost certainly refuse to cut shorter than usual jackets and tighter than usual pants, just for the sake of following a trend. Sometimes I disagree with Simon’s choices, even though he is the only style expert in the net (actually, the best) whose advise and knowledge I consider very dear. My five cents, as they say in America.
Thank you, and kind words Fabrizio. Just to be clear, too, in the post I’m saying it’s the top of the leg that avoids that old man look. Have whatever you want at the bottom
All clear now. Thank you again, Simon
Who is the new tailor?
-Hugh
Chicago
Great article. Looking at my old A. Caraceni pants (and also Gianni Agnelli’s ones) and the ones from Anderson & Sheppard (I believe) that Prince Charles wears, it seems to me that the big tailors in the business favor wider widths at the bottom (8.5” – 9”). I am stuck at 8.25”, maybe due to my age (68). I sent Carlo Andreacchio a picture of me wearing the Caraceni pants (9.25”) and he responded that they were OK and that, if anything, I should consider reducing the width to .5”. I instead followed your advise of 8” ( actually I opted for 8.25”). Regards,
Interesting comparisons.
I find it’s less that the bigger tailors tend towards wider legs, but that they tend to have some more traditional cutters there that
This is gold as always. Would it be absolutely preposterous to ask you to add your actual leg circumference to your measurements? It would really help those of us who struggle with online mtm orders to get an idea of how much extra room is needed for that pleat or crease. Thank you.
My measurements are similar to yours but I have large thighs (33cm) and glutes, and prominent calves. With off the peg, I need to size up at least a couple of sizes and have the waist taken in, even then the trousers tend to catch on my calves and hang away at the back of my shoes. It can also be a problem with bespoke if cut too slim. Do I just need to accept I need to wear fuller trousers with a wider leg opening?
Perhaps, or that you have to adjust your trousers when get up or sit down – not the end of the world.
Finer socks or those with less friction can also make a difference
Speaking of socks Simon, which do have the least friction in your opinion?
The finer cottons normally
I have a similar issue with very prominent calves and slightly backward curved legs, making rtw trousers more or less impossible to find. Having a leg opening smaller than 23 cm doesn’t really seem possible for me.
I haven’t ventured into bespoke trousers yet, would you theoretically say there’s a greater chance of getting a better fit than high end MTM? After all there’s only so much you can do in trousers compared to jackets.
There is a greater chance of getting a better fit, yes, but you’re right that it’s more marginal than with MTM.
If you’ve never tried either before, I’d start with MTM.
I’m doing mtm today via Stòffa and Saman Amel, hence my doubt/question whether it’d be worth the increased cost of bespoke.
Thanks Simon. This is useful and I will take some of these measurements from my favorite trousers. They will be useful when considering buying trousers online (the only way I can access some better quality ones that fit my slim legs). Thankfully, many online sellers provide quite detailed measurements.
Keeping in mind of course the slightly different measurement points different clothing makers use.
This got me thinking about an issue I have with some trousers. Some seem to have a much higher rise in the front than in the back resulting in sort of a baggy crotch area. The lowest point is straight below the zipper. I have this with some types of ready to wear suits. Is there an easy fix by a tailor?
Not easily, no. The front needs to come up your body, which may be possible with tightening the waist or hips, but likely not.
All RTW trousers have to strike some kind of balance with front and back rise, and hope they fit most men, but everyone needs something slightly different. I usually do best with a slightly higher back rise, for example, as the image shows
I think considering shoe size is still important.
Say you have very large feet, if you were to aggressively taper at the bottom, it would only emphasize the size of your shoes and may even exaggerate them a bit; so taking that into account is relevant.
Great post, as always.
Absolutely. I just find some consider that and nothing else
Simon. Thank you for this emphasis on trousers and very much looking forward to the piece on rise as well. So much is often said about jackets that trousers are often overlooked but to me, are actually just as important in the overall wearing experience.
I have a consistent problem with my trousers (all RTW, and all taken in a little at the waist as my waist is smaller than the sizes I’ve ever found sold). Specifically, I invariably have a crease in the back where my seat meets the thighs. I need to lean forward around 30-40 degrees for it to straighten out (obviously, I don’t normally stand or go about my day this way).
I’m wondering if this is (a) an issue with the pitch of the trouser legs v. seat, (b) a reflection that the rear rise is too long as compared to the front rise for how I wear my trousers, or (c) an artifact of the waist typically being taken in 2 inches.
It’s hard to know without seeing them, bit it sounds more to me like the trouser at the top of the thigh is just too narrow – not something you can correct much with RTW unfortunately
Trouser legs don’t have a pitch. You need a “short back rise” adjustment.
I too prefer a knee of ~24cm but due to my thick calves I think a slightly wider leg opening works better for me. These days I go for 21-22cm
Ha. I don’t know what you guys are stressing about with your ‘large’ thighs. I had to read the posts twice to make sure you weren’t confusing cm with inches.
My calf measurement is 54cm/21″, my thigh 69cm/27″. Best I can do is find a tailor who doesn’t cut me trousers that look like Kim Jong Un’s.
I realise, of course, that your measurements are flat across the trousers, mine are leg circumference – so should be halved for comparison. I hope.
Yes. Plus a bit of room to add between a leg measurement and a trouser one
Simon
Apart from Incotex, any other brands you go to for chinos?
Thanks in advance.
Not really, sorry. I have six pairs, they’re perfect, and I haven’t found anything else yet that fits me well enough
Exactly the situation I’m in. However, their summer Batavia fabric doesn’t appear to be very good quality. In contrast, their doeskin for winter is excellent.
Incotex call it Royal Batavia (which sounds a little bit like a joke to me). Do you know what is special about it?
No, sorry
I ordered a pair from Trunk. They were paper thin and seemed to be slightly baggier than the doeskin pairs I have. To be clear, I always wear regular fit Incotex trousers. I wasn’t impressed by the quality of the fabric at all.
Simon, are any of your Incotex trousers in unusual colours?
Seems to me the colours of Incotex trousers offered for sale in England are quite conservative? I saw online once the Incotex trouser colours offered in Italy and there were many more.
Try the Slowear store on Marylebone High Street – they’re more colourful
What colors would you favor in chinos, besides tan and olive?
Cream’s a classic, and navy with knitwear but less so jackets
Simon, did you also try the chinos from (Luigi) Borrelli? They could be also excellent, but maybe a bit too slim. I personally like the Incotex (slim, Four Season cotton blend) best. And their cotton-linen-blend chinos are fantastic for really hot climate or in tropical countries. For a bit more rugged (vintage) version, I prefer the Studio D’Artisan chinos (tapered version), I think the quality is top notch. The Unis (“Gio”) from USA are also quite good as an universal chino in my opinion. By the way this blog is interesting and informative.
Thank you, and no I hadn’t tried those other brands
Great read! I frequently find it a bit hard to get a hem width that looks natural. Most pants these days can be rather slim, which has a tendency to make my overly wide and flat-ish feet look rather odd, at least in my opinion. I don’t think 8.5G is that out of proportion for being 178cm but I often find them not looking nearly as elegant as I wish. Perhaps I’m just overthinking it.
Simon,
Which Incotex model do you currently go for?
This type?
https://www.trunkclothiers.com/incotex-batavia-four-season-regular-chino-grey
Thanks,
S
Yes, although the cut has also changed a little (slightly lower rise) since I bought mine
Do you like the cotton / synthetic mix?
Yes, I don’t mind it in a chino like this, which will fit fairly close
S
Get the doeskin fabric chinos instead of Batavia. The quality is way better.
What about the break Simon? Doesn’t look like you usually go for much of one. Is that correct?
Normally no break in the back, a small one in front, for plain bottom trousers. Pretty much nothing at all on turn-ups
Hi Simon,
Funnily enough, we have exactly the same measurements but for the shoes, if I remember your past posts!
So to me the Pommela’s would have been a bit narrow too!
A very good idea to draw the attention of PS readers to this important topic of measurements.
John
Dear Simon,
great post as always. I had some cotton trousers made by Luxire in quite the same style as yours from Pommella. I find some of them tend to buckle around at the knee area and beneath. It looks a bit as if there`s a buckle at the knee giving the impression that the knee overlaps the bottom part. I was wondering wether this comes from the (rather slim) cut or the fabric (as it`s pronounced differently on different trousers). Do you have an idea where this might result from?
Hi Philipp,
Hard to say without seeing them, as always, but it sounds like it’s probably the slim fit, as the trouser can’t drape cleanly down the leg. If the fabric is not the kind that would fall cleanly anyway then that would also be an issue
Trousers should be cut with a slightly curved pleat to accomodate the natural curve of the knees and calves. In bespoke tailoring it involves a lot of precision work with a steam iron. You can try it yourself next time you press your trousers. It is possible to shape the fabric.
Hi Simon, a little off-track perhaps, but how prevalent is use of metric units in the UK? I ask the question because here in Australia we’ve used the metric system since 1966, but most measurements in tailoring still use the imperial. I would’ve thought that you would use imperial too, but you measure in centimetres. As a classic car nerd I’ve also wondered why you English have always used metric (cubic centimetres) for measuring engine capacity but stuck with horsepower and pound/feet. Off-track as I say!
Yes, a bit random!
The UK has always been a bit of a mix. I still measure my height in feet and distance in miles, but centimetres and metres and more commonly used for estimating small distances. I generally use cm in my measurements just because it is probably the standard measurement for a greater proportion of the readership. British tailors would always use inches, the Europeans centimetres.
Imperial measurement was and may still be used in the US. Engine capacity measurement is perhaps influenced by the German engineers and necessary for certain technical matters.
Simon,
Thanks for this. Would it also be possible to a piece on the different options for pleats please? I do find it quite confusing what I should be looking for. Is it just fashion or is there something else to it? Unless you’ve done that already that is.
I haven’t really Simon, and sure I can
Thank you for this – more articles on this topic are welcome. The Pommella and W&S trousers make for beautiful silhouettes. A small point; you begin with metric measurements and end with imperial (at end of article). Given that much of the readership is in the US, UK, Australia (apologies to others) can I suggest that imperial might be a more useful expression of dimension. As an addition to the subject of the rise could you also consider (variously or together) pockets, pleats and the finishing at the bottom (particularly whether ends should be cut straight – that is perpendicular to the length, or, as one tailor suggested, leaving the back 1/2 to 3/4 inch longer than the front making for a slightly angled but more elegant finish?). You make excellent points re. thigh width (old mannish) and shoe size. Out of interest, to gain a sense of proportion what shoe size are you (thinking of the Bemers and Pommellas 2nd to last image)?
Thanks.
I’m normally an 8.5 UK sizing
A military hem can only really work on formal trousers. Not worth trying on cords or anything less formal
Which were the Levi’s in the article?
My bespoke high-waisted pair. Have a quick search on the site for all the background
Simon,
The measures you took for Bottom, Knee and Thigh, above, would those also apply let say for a summer Linnen trouser? Or would you rather accept more “clearence” in this case?
A little bit more, perhaps, but only a little. Just because the linen has a little less stretch
I’d prefer to go narrower than wider, if I had to choose between the two. I find with linen there’s a fine line between ‘look at me, the embodiment of casual summer style’ and ‘look at me. I double as a windsock by motorway bridges on the weekends’ 🙂
I think Simon has highlighted a key challenge is trousers here – for those with athletic legs, typically meaning large thighs ans seat. The narrow waist to wider thighs and the front back rise are difficult. The horizontal waist is often a problem and the angled waist seems to be the right solution, but tailors loathe it for some reason. No one ever notices it in real life.
Simon at the waist do your trousers taper inward to hug your abdomen or are they left relatively vertical at the top since you have side adjusters. ?
I sometimes find trousers which fit flush at the waist are a little tight when you sit down as the amdomen crunches up. Therefore I ask for a little bit of extra room (1/4 inch) to give some space. How do you deal with this problem?
I don’t find they really press on my abdomen at all, because I wear them relatively low. I do have that with high-waisted trousers and it’s one reason I don’t really wear them
Hi Simon, all the final measurements u describe are only cosmetic. Your problem is the front rise which is too long. As a trouser cutter and maker I can see that in the pictures. However u need a little more round on the hips to allow ease on the Seat. Pascalis Bespoke Tailoring , Sydney Australia.
Thanks Michael, but I don’t think you can really tell that from the pictures. And as mentioned higher up in the comments, I’ve tried higher and lower front rises with lots and lots of tailors over the years.
Understand your point re. military hem Toby. What re. the advantages over straight hem or is it just a matter of personal choice?
If you have an even hem, the back will tend to be too short unless you have a lot of break in the front.
A military hem will allow you to have a good length at the back with little if any break at the front.
Simon, apart from cotton what other fabrics might work for khaki trousers?
It can be nice in linen too for summer
Hi Simon,
do your trousers from different makers have slightly different front rise and back rise measurements? Or a different crotch cut?
For example I have some trousers from a maker A with (including 4.5cm waistband) 46cm back rise and 29cm front rise with a more “rounded” crotch shape, while some others from maker B have (including 5-6cm waistband) 45 back rise and 32 front rise with a “V-shape” crotch…
Yes, it does vary. Different tailors have different views on what best fits and flatters. And finding the right compromise between the two. It’s a decent argument for finding the one you like the most and perhaps having only one trouser maker
Hi Simon,
Thoughtful analysis and great style. I especially like your take on the Pommella trouser and the thought behind the details. Just lovely.
I write to you from Sydney, Australia where the weather is for the most part pleasantly warm and sunny. This poses two problems as follows:
1) jackets are light weight and often not worn at all on hot days at the office; and
2) trouser materials that hold their structure well like Calvary twill wool are far to hot to wear in Sydney.
I have been wearing bespoke shirts for years but sadly my trousers let me down. I have a few pairs of incotex cotton mix but am more partial to the 1st-pat-rn cotton 1940s cut trouser with a generous knee.
The details around the waist band and pockets of your Pommella cavalry twill trousers really thrilled me. They just look great and very comfortable in the seat with a nice high rise. I would wear them a little wider in the knee because a tapered look with my chest width is a little out of proportion for me personally.
What material do you recommend for warmer climates for gents seeking a bespoke look but with the warmer weather squarely in mind? What material should I take to my Tailor? A basket weave navy cotton perhaps?
I look forward to hearing your views and recommendations.
Regards,
Stan
Hi Stan,
I think you want the guide to summer trousers – link there. It’s part of our wider guide to cloth series
Wow! Your blog is amazing, Simon. So much in-depth information that other fashion blogs gloss over.
I have a question that I’ve been pondering for a long time. As a general rule, what would you consider the minimum thigh measurement that is comfortable enough without old-mannish look (how much to add to your body measurement)? E.g. if my thigh is 56 cm in circumference (28 cm across), what should be the minimum pants measurements at the thigh? Would 28 + 2 = 30 cm be too little or just right?
Keep it up, Simon.
Thanks, pleased you appreciate it.
I don’t it’s necessarily worth having an absolute rule here, as what is comfortable will depend on the material, the overall cut and the style of the trouser (eg pleats or not). Best to work with a tailor or anyone fitting you to make sure the trousers are still comfortable when you’re sitting down. The old-mannish look is more likely to come from having a little too much below the seat rather than in the thigh
SIMON HELLO
I WANT TO ASK HOW MUCH IS THE GAP BETWEEN THE BOTTOM OF THE TROUSER AND SHOE,TO ACHIEVE PERFECT LENGTH
THANK YOU
The general rule for a smart trouser is to have no break at the back of the trouser (so a straight line down, to touch the shoe) and a small one at the front.
With more casual trousers, or turn-ups, it can be shorter, to just touch the top of the shoe at the front.
Hi Simon
When would you recommend adding cuffs on trousers when having a suit made?
Can you have cuffs without pleats, and vica versa?
Kind Regard
Anthony
No, I don’t tend to relate cuffs with pleats. I would tend to have cuffs on slightly less formal suits and trousers, but it’s also a fashion thing – I have a lot more cuffs now than I used to
Simon
I’m sure this has been mentioned before but I’m afraid despite searching I couldn’t find it. What size are the cuffs on these trousers?
Apologies again if this is answers elsewhere.
5cm
How would you measure the rise on an existing pair of trousers? I am curious to know if you measure from the top of the waist band all the way down to wear the four seams (2 inseams, the seam down the back, and the seam below the fly)? Or are there different measuring points?
No, that’s correct
Hey Simon do you have any recommendations for brands which sell ivy League style type kahki chinos – higher rise, flat front, with space in the tighs and legs but slim enough to pair well with a sportscoat?
No, sorry…
Dear Simon,
I’m looking for some advice on a pair of trousers I recently purchased through Luxire. I’m facing some issues with how they fall around my ankle and was hoping you could give me some advice.
The trousers are cut in a Drago Rugby Flannel, which is a 300g 130s fabric that has a slight amount of natural stretch. I’d say the cut is classic but leaning towards slim, with a 19,5 cm foot opening and a clean or very light break. I am very tall and extremely lean (200 cm, 73 kg), and have slim legs. The silhouette when viewed from the side is beautiful with hardly any bunching or dimples breaking the straight line of the leg. However, at the ankle, the trousers tend to flare outwards so that after a short walk, the creases have shifted around 2 cm to the sides. This, in turn, causes the trousers to get stuck on my socks (especially now in winter, when static electricity is a bigger issue in the dry air). After a day of wearing the trousers, they are actually standing outwards to the sides, becoming wider than they are “deep”.
Needless to say, this is a rather annoying issue! The trousers almost look like flared 90’s jeans towards the end of the day.
I realize this is a rather specific question, but I was hoping you would have some good advice.
My own analysis is that the fabric is too light and naturally stretchy to hold its form. I am considering lengthening the trousers slightly to create a greater break, so that they rest on the shoe, gaining some support from this. What do you think about actually pressing the pants inward i.e. creating a non-centred crease to make up for the “rotating” of the legs? Could this solve the issue or would it just look weird?
Thank you in advance for any advice or analysis you might have!
Br,
Alex
Hi Alex,
You’re right, it’s hard to say much when I can’t see them in person. But it’s likely to do with the drape of the trouser, rather than the cloth, though of course heavier or stiffer fabrics will always hold their line better. I also wouldn’t worry too much about the crease – it’s a very minor point, and one I don’t think anybody would notice.
Hi Simon,
I am looking to have my first pair of bespoke flannel trousers made. My thoughts are for double pleats, side adjusters and turn ups. My question is all about pleats. I have seen both Forward and Reverse pleats but not sure which to go for. Are there any benefits in one over the other?
Most see forward-facing pleats as functioning better, but it’s not a big difference. Reverse pleats are more common and would look more normal. If you’re in doubt, and haven’t had either before, I’d go with those
Hi Simon,
Very helpful and informative. I know there are a lot of variables which need to be considered for the bottom leg opening and my question is what is the right leg opening for me? I’m 5’7″ and 135 lbs. Does shoe size matter at all? I wear a size 8. Clearly I’m on the smaller side but unfortunately all of the trousers I have are from about 15-17 years ago, and they all have a 9″ opening and look way too baggy now. I’m still in my 30s but not for long and I think the pants just look down right terrible. I need to know which leg opening would suit me the best. Thank you
Yes, nine inches is pretty big.
There’s no exact formula for leg opening, as it’s a result of factors such as height, shoe size, and formality, plus of course a lot of fashion and personal preference.
I’d suggest reducing yours to more like 8 inches, which will be a lot slimmer but is still fairly conservative. Do it on one pair, wear it for a few weeks, and see what you think
Sounds good, thanks Simon. Will give it a try.
can any one suggest how to add more weight to trouser hems and avoid having them flap around? apart from turn ups obviously.
You can add tape to the inside edge too. Some tailors do that, some don’t, some just in the back half
Interesting, I always thought this tape is more an edge-protector. And that is why some tailors place them a millimeter or two below the hem. Never thought of it as weight attachment. I also have some trousers where only the front half is taped.
It does a few things, including keeping that line sharper too
Simon
Do you source your own side buckles? If so, can I ask where from? Also , I note that you don’t put the fastener on the waistband but below it. Is there any reason for this?
No, it’s always from the tailor.
And yes I usually have them on the seam because it enables them to sit a little higher on my body, but have the tight bit in the same place
Ah. Got you. I usually wear my trousers on the hip, so I guess fasteners on the waistband should be fine?
I do too. The point is the trouser can be an inch higher, which is more flattering usually, but they still feel like you’re being held in the same place as usual, on your hips in your case
Right, got you. Thanks for clarifying.
Simon, I normally opt for single reverse pleats on my suits. I did try for a slimmer profile with a suit, and opted for flat fronts. However, I found this to be a bit bland. Is there a compromise allowing the customer to keep the single pleat but maintain a slimmer less full front and thigh? What would you request..a shallow pleat? ..a shorter pleat …or just a forward dart instead? I have seen a pic on the internet showing a blue Henry Herbert suit done like this…I think it looks stylish and less ‘old man’ looking…especially when tapered to narrow bottoms..thanks..DD
Just ask for a shallower pleat, yes
Hi there,
I’m wondering if you would cover something extraordinarily imperative to designing a pair of trousers – OVERAGES to the Waist, Seat, Thigh, Knee, and Bottom off of actual skin measurements. For instance, if one were to wanting to make a pair of flat front trousers, with a flattering Italian cut (pants sit at natural waist, trim yet proportional through the leg), what is a general rule of thumb to applying the correct overages to the pattern? For instance, I would imagine you would give maybe 1/4″ to the waist, 2″ to the seat (adding 1 or two darts based on a prominent seat or not), 2″ to the thigh, 2″ to the knee, and the bottom would be personal preference. Also, what is your opinion on the proportion of front rise vs back rise? I cannot find any information on the topic.
The problem, Andrew, is that both points are heavily dependent on style, which is personal, regional and fluctuates with time. Rise is personal but also dependent on physicality. You could describe the allowances that different tailors give in these points, but it wouldnt be anything universal
Hi Simon,
I got bespoke pants from traveling tailor which fit is rather pleasing with one small caveat – they do collapse a bit under seat while standing in relaxed pose, but has straight line when standing ‘tall’. Not sure if this is a thing to be fixed or not? How much is appropriate to ask tailor fixing finished trousers? What can be still changed in pattern aprt lengt/circumference?
Thanks,
Tomas
You’re not going to be able to have a clean line standing in both positions, Tomas, so you need to work out which you want.
There is usually the possibility to alter finished trousers, but it does depend on what the alteration is, so ask them.
Hi,
I recently got a bespoke pair of odd trousers, but I’m not entirely happy with them, due to the waist. The tailor already altered it once at delivery, but it still isn’t right:
When received, the waist was tight enough to hold the trousers while standing, but as soon as I sat, it would cut in my belly pretty harshly. So while sitting wearing those, it would both be hard to breath and be painful.
After the alteration, the trousers would fit nicely while sitting. Not too large, not too narrow either. However, they’d be far too large while standing / walking, and as a result have to be worn with braces.
They were made with button side adjusters, and since I’d be dropping the jacket all the time in the office, it was not in the idea to be worn with braces, and as a result I’m very reticent to wear them.
What would you do in such a case?
It’s hard to say without seeing them in person – it could be a not great cut from the tailor, or it could simply be your body shape. I cannot wear trousers on my natural waist without braces, for example. I just find them uncomfortable, cutting into my belly. It might be the same with you.
Thanks for your answer and the head’s up about the waist. If I get another pair, I’ll try to have them at a lower waist, which will naturally change the cut too. In the meantime, I think my best shot would be to wear this pair with knitwear or to get an overcoat to hide those braces. Not as useful as I hoped them to be, but as you often mention bespoke pieces don’t always turn up the way we imagined them.
would you not wear a sports jacket covering the braces anyway? If they peep out here or there its fine I would say? no?
I think Rups, like me, he would not keep the jacket on all the time
All the better! 1987 stockbroker style) Gordon Gekko never worried about it!
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/business/dealbook/how-to-tax-gordon-gekko.html
It’s not association most of us want, fortunately…
Actually to be fair when I wear braces and have to remove my jacket in the London tube you do get stared at. If you’re conscious better to get trousers worn just above the hips without braces. You are right to say that high waisted trousers often are uncomfortable without braces as the stomach naturally will expand on sitting or bending down by an inch or two. Therefore to wear high waisted trousers (on or just around the natural waist) without braces is not a good option.
If my navel and rib bone are far apart and natural waist is a few inches above navel, how can I find the right waist line?
Go off your natural waist (between your hip bone and your ribs) not your belly button in that case.
Simon,
In several comments, readers post about having a large seat (meaning buttocks). I have the reverse problem of having a small seat. With age, I have a slight stomach/belly. For my mtm suits, thus creates a problem with side tap trousers (cut low). Namely, they tend to fall down when standing.
Is there a solution other than trousers with braces or belt loops as I move to bespoke? Which is prefereable?
Thank you.
Braces will always provide the best solution – as you’re no longer reliant on the waist at all. It’s all from the shoulders. But it’s a question of whether you like that style
To anon … your problem is an easy one to solve. Do you live near a KFC, Dominos or McDonalds outlet? If so, eat there at least 3 or 4 times a week, in addition switch to drinking Coca Cola most of the day. I think within a year your problem will be fixed. Thank me later. Rups.
Hi Simon
You mentioned that your trousers sit in the middle of the hip bone – does that mean that you have to lower the buttoning point on your jackets to avoid having a triangle of shirt showing?
No, I put up with having a little showing, though usually only when I put my hand in my trouser pockets, lifting the fronts of the jacket.
It’s unavoidable with a non-high waisted trouser unfortunately.
What are the factors to consider when it comes to deciding whether to get a pair of chinos cuffed / no cuff?
Can you wait a week? There’s a full post coming on that decision on the 10th!
Just paying heed to this article, I had 2 pairs of trousers MTM a yr ago and have since moved city. Have always found they get caught on my calf when going from sit to stand. Measured the leg opening at the bottom as 7”, and just had them recut by a local tailor to 7.5” and they’re perfect, still a nice tapered look but no catching now! I’m a similar height to Simon so that makes sense w his measurements in the article
Nice to hear, thanks Jack. Yes, 7 inches is pretty narrow for anyone
Hey Simon,
I have quite short legs for my body I believe. 30-31” , and 5ft 10. Bit of my Eastern European genes most probably. I am always curious as to how to handle the width of my trousers. Instinctively I’ve always gone with narrower and think it looks better on me but , honestly, I never know. No one has ever really given me an opinion and would be curious to know what your thought!
If you’re concerned with height, I don’t think trousers that are wider or narrower necessarily look better on you – better just to have a moderate width, something that is neat and not noticeable either way. Then concentrate on the rise, and the lack of turn-ups
Simon, the fit on the Ivory Pommella trousers is gorgeous (in my opinion). Especially the cut of the Front and Back Rise (great balance), as well as the shape at the bottom of the Rear/Thigh Area. To learn from this fit, could you kindly share what the finished outseam and inseam lengths are on these trousers? Also the Finished Waist, Hips, and Thigh measures, if possible?
Hi Andrew,
Thank you. I fear that measures like those might be misleading though – if you were planning to use them for a similar pair of trousers? They depend a lot on the legs underneath. A better measurement might be the extra space or excess there is between leg and trouser?
Just came across this article. Just wondering: how do you make these measurements? do you just fold the trousers along the seam, lay them on the bed, and then apply the measuring tape? Or did you have someone measure you?
I’ve noticed that online, some RTW companies supply measurements on their sizing table in terms of circumference, and others in terms of what the size is when you lay the garment down flat.
They were measured when lying flat, yes.
But the circumference should just be double that? If measuring accurately, it shouldn’t make any difference whether you’re wearing them or they’re lying flat
Simon,
I’m not sure if the trousers on my most recent bespoke suit are a bit too tight. First off, I think they look great and have no fit issues when I’m standing up, and don’t even look that tight too me. I have no issues when I walk normally. There are two instances when I feel they may be a bit tight. When I’m walking up and down stairs I feel a bit of tension in the knee, as if they are getting caught or not riding up as they should. It isn’t painful or anything, just something I notice. Second, when I sit down I get that tension in the knee and the hem seems to catch on the back of my calves. I have the help ease them up then. They really don’t appear too tight at all, but I do notice those issues. Is that normal? If not, what would be the fix? Widen the pant legs all the way around?
Those issues can happen on trousers that aren’t too tight, though they won’t usually on ones that are fuller in the leg.
It’s really a matter of degree – how constricting they are – as to whether this is wrong or not. It might well be, but it’s hard to say remotely.
The solution is a wider leg, yes, mostly from the knee down (presuming the thigh doesn’t feel tight when you sit down)
I wouldn’t say my main concern is how restricting they are as I can pretty much do what I want, the concern would be more am I putting too much stress and therefore unnecessary wear and tear on the knee? Is that a legitimate concern or can wool suit trousers take some stress in the knee? I took advice from one of your other columns and bought two pairs of trousers to go with the suit, so at least That should help the suit last longer than it normally would.
Ok, understood. Again it’s a question of degrees. You definitely can wear trousers more quickly by putting stress like that on them, but it depends how much
This is an excellent site, full of really helpful information. I’m cranking up to getting a proper suit made. It’s been a while since I had one, and TBH I’ve pretty much stopped wearing them. Most of mine were made (to measure, rather than bespoke) about 10-15 years ago, and the trouser bottoms are just too wide (9″ across when folded). They look very outdated. I’ve been wearing Spoke trousers which are cut well, but the trouser bottom is much narrower – 7″ – which i like as I’m short, but I wonder whether or not that size would work with a lounge suit in a traditional house cut. I also have a sneaking doubt that I look a bit mutton in the them. I’m seeing a tailor next week and will discuss further!
Yes, Spoke are pretty narrow and fashion-led. I’d recommend having your existing trousers narrowed to 8 inches or 7.5. Start with just the one pair, wear them half a dozen times, and then decide if you like it and want to do the others. Narrowing trouser legs is a simple tailoring operation to do.
When you do alter them, though, make sure the tailor leaves enough inlay inside so that you can take them out again a little if you want to.
Thanks Simon. I will do that.
What determines how narrow the bottom can be?
For example, I am 1.86m tall, slim and athletic. Which range (bottom) would you recommend?
Funnily enough, my current trousers are almost identical to your W&S trousers in the article above( 0,5cm less knee and thigh).
Your height and build are factors, certainly, but I think style is a bigger one. For example, I class my Whitcomb ones as being on the slim side for smart trousers, but still fairly smart. Suit trousers could go a little wider, and casual ones even a tiny bit slimmer.
Hi Simon,
After re-reading this article I was inspired to look at the measurements on my trousers. I was surprised (though I’m not sure why), to find all of them were quite different.
My question is to what extent should I be trying to replicate measurements that I like across different trousers from different tailors or even on my ready to wear? And to what extent are they even replicable across different pieces of tailoring?
For example the rise on my favourite trousers by Whitcomb and Shaftsbury, is significantly higher than on my drakes ready to wear, and the taper at the bottom is also greater. Whilst I could presumably get the taper on the drakes pair altered, I could not get the rise. But would then the taper measurement be irrelevant because the rise is not the same ? Does that make sense? Is my goal to try and replicate the measurements I like, or to work with each piece as an individual?
Thankyou as always
I think you should probably try to replicate the same proportions, if they’re the same type of trouser – so a tailored one, not a chino, for example.
The rise won’t make much difference the taper, though do make sure you look at the line of the leg as a whole (thigh, knee, opening).
Thanks Simon.
I am 200% better dressed since discovering PS, and that percent is increasing with every question you answer. Thankyou !
Hey Simon-
I usually request belt loops on my bespoke suits thinking the buckled tabs (not sure what those are called) seem old mannish. But never do I see belted pants with your bespoke suits. Is the beltless pant a signature of bespoke ? I always thought a belt gave a finished look to the ensemble. Is the beltless pant considered more smart as you say? Is there some history behind the buckled tabs ? Thanks. As always appreciate your expertise.
Hi Robert,
Those tabs, or side adjustors, are more traditional with most tailoring, certainly outside Italy, and are often favoured for smart tailoring because it gives a much cleaner look. They are also often only found on higher-end tailoring, so they are a sign of it to some extent, yes. And they are more traditional – suits were rarely worn with belts in the past, usually with braces and later with side adjustors.
S
Hey Simon-
Just found the answer to my question (and much more!) on your post “Reader Question: Trouser Waists”(12/31/2010). Should have searched the archives more closely.
Oh good.
I bit the bullet and ordered a suit from KH&L before Christmas. It will be ready later this month. The whole experience has been a delight, particularly as Mr Kent is such a lovely man with incredible attention to detail.
Regarding trouser fit, I am a bigger guy. I have had my MTM trousers cut high waisted, with a fuller cut, and side adjustors.
But, for my less “forgiving” fabrics that may not be as naturally “stretchy”, I find that no matter how full the cut, I am just not very comfortable when sitting. Interestingly, it is not the waist that seems to be the problem, but tightness in the thighs and seat…is this just a matter of getting those areas cut even fuller, or is this just something, as a bigger guy, I have to live with?
And on the same note, looking through the past comments it seems you have made some efforts to address this, but….comparing the measurements of your actual body regions, like your hips, thighs, knees, calves, ankles, how much room do you leave for your trousers? For example, if my thighs are 36cm in diameter, what is the minimum diameter of cloth necessary for a truly comfortable fit??? THOSE ratios would be great to know for all regions!
Hi William,
It’s a little hard to give advice, given I am not a bigger guy and so don’t have any experience here. However, I would guess that if you feel tightness there, that yes you need more fullness. Sorry it’s hard to say more.
On the ‘excess’ needed around body measurements, I generally refrain from talking about this, just because I find there is so much variation between men, as to what they find is comfortable. There may be a default tailors would use, for example, and then adjust to particular customers. But even then it varies between tailors as to how much they allow given their house styles. So I’m afraid of these measurements being too misleading
William,
Ethan talks about “stride” where his legs go from straight vertical to bent. Im not big, but have got muscular legs, and I need more room when I sit than might be first apparent, especially if in sitting for extended periods of time
Thank you for your considered response
I actually reached out to Ethan Newton, I actually reached out to him on this topic via IG, and he was kind enough to respond:
“As far as rise height and stride in the thigh, it’s hard to give an exact amount. Every measurement in the trouser works in tandem, so your back rise height to front rise height will affect stride, likewise fullness through the hip and degree of taper in the leg will affect how full you can go from the start. Best advice is to find a tailor you can continue working with and trust his judgment, refine the pattern over time.”
While he did not give specific measurement/ratio recommendations, he did provide further insight as to what areas to “play” with in order to get a better fit.
Simon, maybe an article (with pics) about the functionality of tailored clothing in relationship to fit….I’d like to know what your trousers look like (e.g. are they pulling, where, how much?) as well as how they subjectively feel as far as comfort, when you are sitting or walking up stairs? It’s one thing to have a perfect fit while standing, but I want to know what my reasonable comfort expectations are when I have to sit, squat down to get in/out of my car, walk up stairs, and so on in my well fitting garments…
Thank you again for your all your help!
I think that’s a hard thing to get across William, and I also think that – in line with Ethan – that this isn’t something that you will benefit that much from trying to prescribe. Better to work with a good tailor, and fit a cut you like and feel comfortable in.
Dear Simon
Waist is real terrific thing and It would be nice If you write an article focused on it.
But I have a personal question about your waist measurement. I am 180cm tall and in proportion my feet are longer than my torso but since I am thin I prefer mid rise trouser and I would like to know how do you like your waist measurement be ? Do you prefer snug fitting or giving an inch room to it ? ( not considering side straps and their effect but the the waist itself)
Regards
Ebi
I prefer the waist to be snug, Ebi, because I like them not to move anywhere, and after a few minutes I don’t notice any tightness. Certainly in tailored wool trousers.
Hello again, I had recently asked some questions in this thread about trouser fit for the bigger guy, particularly about tightness in the thighs when sitting, even though I thought my MTM trousers had been cut with enough “allowance”…here are some pics of my linen trousers…please let me know what you think? Is it simply that they are cut too slim? Cause I feel like if they were cut any fuller, they would look like a costume from the 1920’s?
Hi William,
I’d first of all say that this is not an area I’m an expert in, as I am not this size.
However, it seems that if you do find these trousers too tight and restrictive when sitting, you will need a wider leg. Both in the thigh and bottoms.
That does mean they will be wider, but that’s unavoidable really given the size elsewhere. It may also look better as a balance to the trouser. There is a big difference between top and bottom here.
S
Thank you so much for your input…while I cannot argue with you, considering the discomfort and overall tightness I’m experiencing when sitting, it IS interesting to me since I did not realize there was such a “big difference” between the top and bottom, but now that you mention it, I can definitely see a significant taper!
Pleased I could help in at least that regard William
More pics..
And more…just FYI, the front rise is approximately 33cm (13in) and back rise is 53cm (21in) and there is just a bit of sagging of the trouser down there…I’m thinking that playing with the rise, besides having a fuller seat and thigh, can also play a role in comfort as my hips and legs bend?
The rise won’t make a big difference to the thigh area and downwards. It will only add comfort if you find the waist of the trousers is moving around for you, or its too tight in the belly or, at the back, from the seat and above.
Sorry, forgot to attach the pic to the previous comment, here’s the final pic
This is what it looks like when I sit…
Hi Simon, I have a question regarding Drake’s five pockets denim jeans. I am not sure if you have tried this on, but if you have or know this model, I was wondering if you could please recommend the length for the alterations? I will be wearing this with a sneaker or double monk straps. Thank you.
Hi Kwan,
I have tried them on, yes, but do you mean what length should the jeans be?
That kind of depends on your style, and is a little personal. I generally prefer them to just sit above the shoe, almost touching it. So no break at all.
But also, I like a small turn-up on them, so you can go a little longer and then play with the turn-up and see what length you like.
Thank you for your response.
I’ve been wearing A.P.C. New Standard Jeans without any break and I liked the look. But I was just concerned that if I do this Drake’s Jeans with no break, the hems will swing as the leg opening for this model seems wider than A.P.C’s.
Anyway, it’s been helpful to reading your articles.
Oh good.
There may be a little swing, but I wouldn’t think it would be an issue. If you are concerned, you can have them a little longer and play with the turn-up, as mentioned.
Also, the Drakes opening is wider, but it doesn’t look it because the knee is wider still.
Simon, I have 2 pairs of trousers made with 19″ bottoms (9.5″diameter). I should have gone for 18″. Do you think it worthwhile getting them altered for such a small amount.
Yes, small things like that make all the difference with tailoring. And more importantly, you will probably enjoy them more if it’s something you’ve already noticed
Specific question related to over-the-calf socks and trouser fit…I have noticed that the inside of my trousers, at the leg/calf, get consistently “stuck” to or “catch” on my OTC socks, particularly after I’ve been sitting, so that when I stand up, my trousers (from the knee down) will be somewhat crumpled cause they are stuck somewhere on my sock. I literally have to bend over and pull the pants down and away from the socks to restore the natural drape. My trousers are lined to the knee, btw
Is this something others have experienced?
Should I get my trousers fully lined?
Should I get the legs of my trousers cut wider/larger?
Yes, it happens William.
No, it’s probably not worth having your trousers fully lined. They’ll be hot and not great to wear.
Yes, the best thing is to have trousers cut a little fuller. Also, with OTC socks a little catching now and then is inevitable
Specifically random, yet detail-oriented question…
Having a closer look at a couple of my MTM trousers, I have noted that the part of the trousers where the front rise, back rise, and inseam meet is located significantly “in front of” and “below” the lowest part of the crotch/rise (the point where the trouser leg can be folded upwards)…is this significant? I would have imagined that “lowest part of the crotch/rise” be essentially the same as the point at which the rises and inseam meet?
I took some pics where I am pointing at that “lowest part of the crotch/rise” that I mentioned for reference.
Interesting, thanks William. I don’t know to be honest, but I don’t think you necessarily want them at the lowest point. A cutter would be able to say in more detail, but think about how the shape of your leg varies (it’s not straight up and down, like a stick), and how the amount of movement you do with the leg varies (eg much more forward on the thigh than back). I’d imagine those kinds of things make a difference orientation more practical
Alright boys, I just received some MTM drawstring trousers and would like some analysis and criticism…my initial thoughts are that they are the most comfortable tailored trousers that I now own, probably due to the drawstring nature of the waistline, as well as the fuller, more classic cut to the entire trouser. However, I find that the crotch of the trousers hangs and sags a bit too low, so I’d probably decreased the overall rise next time. Also, the leg opening is currently 8.5 inches (or 17 inches total)…I think I’d make that just a bit smaller, to add a bit more of a tailored, slimming look.
What do you all think? Any specific recommendations?
Of course, I probably could have ironed them for the pics…
I think they look pretty good William – as you say, hard to tell the leg line as they’re not pressed, but I certainly wouldn’t go any slimmer than that.
However, I’ll leave it to a larger guy to comment on the proportions there. I really feel like this is something it’s hard to think through if you’re not that figure?
additional pic
last pic
Such a great article. Apologies Simon but I’m being dim. What were the Cerrato knee/thigh dimensions out of interest. When I try to fill in the blanks it creates an inconsistency with the rest of your (brilliantly clear) piece. As you can see I’m working my way through the archive! Thanks.
No worries, and you’re right – it should say that Cerrato was a little narrower at the knee and thigh. Does that make more sense?
Simon, I fully understand that there are going to be variables including personal preference but say someone is having something made-to-measure for the first time what would you say is the rough amount of allowance you’d need in say, the thigh?
Before I start measuring things, do you mind if I ask you why Aaron? Is it not easier to tell from how your own trousers feel on you, and fit and the allowance they have, rather than going off someone with a different body?
I’m honestly not too sure if any of my trousers fit me particularly well – they’re okay-ish, bit tight when I’m sat or if it’s particularly hot outside. I’m mostly just trying to work out what’s a somewhat reasonable range where it’s still neat, but with enough comfort to fit me, yet not being overly wide.
I have measured the allowance of my own I just think it’d be helpful knowing if it’s similar to others, if that makes sense!
It does, absolutely.
I think it’s best to look at the way the trousers hang on you – where they look tight, where not – rather than going straight into numbers and that level of detail. Consider that elegant dressing is all about drape, about material falling in flattering lines, whereas jeans can be about a tight fit, at least in the seat. That’s why I suggest it’s best to consider the impression they give – men get too detail-orientated too quickly, often
how I did. get a MTO at the price point where 2-3 “normal” pants with almost rtw fit won’t be an issue and where rtw is “reasonable” and go from there changing 1 thing about the fit per pair. that’s what I did with yeossal. 1. rtw with lower rise. 2. size up keeping waist and rise the same and forward lean posture. 3. size down right in the middle between pairs 1 and 3. I ended up with size 32-ish rise, 39 waist and very close to 42 size rest of the stuff.
(and on my next pair I’ll send them my 3rd pair because something got lost in translation for next couple pairs… /facepalm)
Good post . I know more now
Hi Simon, could the turn-up for thick/heavy cloths such as flannels or corduroy narrow the leg openings more than intended? I initially requested the tailor to make my trousers 18.5cm, but after 5cm turn-ups, they are 17.5cm.
Many thanks,
Jack
Yes, that can be a risk. Sorry
Should I increase the width of the openings for the thick cloths before commissioning, considering they would become narrower?
You could, yes. I never have, but then the slimmer your trouser legs get, I suppose the more difference a centimetre makes
Simon, what would your average front and rear rise sizing be, excluding the denim Of course?
Also, since this was posted, do your find your sizing wants have changed?
Many thanks
My front rise is normally around 12 inches, the back 16 inches. Bear in mind this is heavily dependent on height and body shape though.
I don’t think they’ve changed much, no. This post on trouser rise might be useful too – it’s a better way to think about it rather than in someone else’s measures probably
Hi Simon, is it usually possible to increase the rise and make the belt loops for the bespoke trousers after they have been worn several times?
Many thanks,
Jack
I don’t think so, no
Hi Simon, I decided to give my bespoke trousers their 3rd wearing this morning, WITHOUT THE BRACES.
I adjusted in the side tabs by 1/2 inch each. So I have almost hit the sweet spot, maybe could do a slight tad tighter. I had to pull the trousers slightly higher on my waist also, which was more comfortable.
There is a significant bunching up at side tabs and a noticeable looping behind the tab.
Yes, they will need taking in, I trust not a difficult task… but that’s what bespoke is all about.
You’ve been there, I’m sure?
Then my master pattern will also be adjusted of course.
A bit irritating but anyways…
Yes, nice that you can try that before making any adjustments later. If they are adjusted, of course, the fit would also be better because they wouldn’t just be taken in at one point
I forgot to add that even if my bespoke trousers need a slight adjustment, I WAS PREPARED for such an eventuality.
I would say to anyone considering bespoke for the first time :- TRUST YOUR TAILOR, unless you have had a previous bad experience, in my case, a very bad MTM commission.
It may be tempting to change tailor, but don’t. Yes, another tailor may be better… or worse.
1. Listen to all advice given.
2. Work with his house style and methods.
3. Don’t shy away from pointing out any issues, eg. Jacket too tight across the back and shoulders
4. Be patient, it will work out.
In the longer term, if you want to venture out… No more than three tailors maximum. Eg. Anderson & Sheppard for superb Double brested Apparel.
Corrections accepted!!!
Lindsay
Hi Simon just wanted to ask what is height of turn up at bottom I mean to say bottom fold height in your Whitcomb & Shaftesbury trouser
5cm
Thanks for quick reply Simon
No worries, happy to help
Hi Simon, I find that when I wear over-the-calf socks and stand up from sitting, they often catch my trousers around the upper calves – is this something that is inevitable?
Many thanks,
Jack
If you wear slim trousers, largely yes.