Chinos from tailors never feel like chinos. Why is this?
I used to think I knew the answer: the fabrics they used were too fine – dress cottons, made with fine fibres, finished for a sleek look and good drape.
Chinos, even luxury ones, are usually made from tougher fabrics. They’re coarser, denser, and more casual as a result.
Of course, often chinos are garment washed too, making them feel softer and look worn in.
But that wasn’t the central issue, because a lot of top-end chinos, often from Japanese makers, are not garment washed. They start raw, just like jeans, and the customer does the work through wash and wear.
I’ve since learned that it’s a bit more complicated than just materials.
And the result of getting to the bottom of it is an end product: real bespoke chinos, made by Whitcomb & Shaftesbury, shown above.
I know most people will be happy with ready-made chinos. For others, having them made by a bespoke tailor will seem ridiculously extravagant. The chinos will also, like most bespoke, be too expensive for the vast majority. These ones cost £528 (inc. VAT).
But I also know there are men that have trousers made bespoke already, and get frustrated at trying to find chinos. They may also only want one or two pairs ever, because it’s not what they normally wear.
For those guys, this could be a good option.
So, the first issue with bespoke chinos is that you can’t wash them.
With the high-end Japanese chinos mentioned above, it’s always assumed that a lot of their character will come with washing and wearing over time. It’s certainly what has happened with my favourites, such as these Armoury ones.
But bespoke clothes are not made to be washed in a washing machine. It’s normally an issue with inner materials rather than outer ones: canvas becomes distorted or bent out of place, and linings on the inside of the jacket or waistband don’t cope well either.
These bespoke chinos had to be washable, therefore. Whitcomb had done this occasionally in the past, so it wasn’t that difficult.
They removed the canvas from the structure of the waistband, used a simple cotton one on the inside of it, and reduced the amount of handwork (so these would be less likely to come undone in a machine).
The second point was less obvious, but more important: cut the chinos like jeans, not trousers.
Jeans and chinos have a very particular cut. Basically, the outside seam of the trouser is a straight line, and only the inside seam is shaped to the style and the wearer.
This is why jeans can show selvedge down the outside: it’s a straight line, not a curve.
The pattern for tailored trousers works from the middle of the trousers rather that the outer edge (the line of the crease). This is kept straight, with both the inside and the outside seams being shaped to the wearer.
Another way to think about it is that jeans are cut as if the wearer is riding a horse, with their legs unnaturally far part. Trousers are cut as if the wearer is standing naturally, with feet closer to shoulder width.
Tailors generally dislike the way jeans are cut because it creates a lot of fullness around the inside of the leg and the crotch. This can look baggy (although on a coarse material like denim you don’t really notice).
There is one advantage to this cut, though, which is that the material sits flush on the outside of the hips. If you put on a pair of jeans and a pair of tailored trousers and look in the mirror, it’s here that you’ll probably notice the difference.
With Whitcomb, we actually used some scrap material to make up trousers in both cuts – one tailored, one jeans/chinos – and I saw the difference immediately. The ones cut like chinos immediately felt like chinos.
(It’s annoyingly hard to get across in photos, unfortunately – we did try.)
So chinos cut like chinos, in a washable make so they would age/fade.
Next was sourcing some actual chino material – rather than what the normal mills offer, which is that fine/tailored/sleek/drape look.
The material you can see here is cotton canvas from Mikutex in Japan, the same one used by Blackhorse Lane for their chinos. (Annoyingly, Mikutex have since discontinued this particular line, but Whitcomb are in the process of testing the replacement.)
The final element was design. I brought in a range of chinos to Whitcomb, including new and vintage ones, so we could decide on which elements to choose. Like the cut, these make a huge difference.
The most important element was the double-stitched seams, which usually run down the inside or outside of the leg, or through the seat, on chinos. We went for the most common option, which was double stitching on the inside leg and seat.
Next was the lack of waistband. Most original chinos don’t have one, with the material running straight from the legs to the top, and only being visually separated by a seam (see above).
There’s also more visible stitching elsewhere, such as that attaching the turn-up inside, and on the outside of the pockets. Of course, these all become particularly prominent over time, as the chinos are washed and these points fade first (see below – these have had one wash).
The only design element we missed, in retrospect, was the height of the hip pockets. For some reason on chinos these are about an inch higher than on tailored trousers. Perhaps because they used to all be high waisted. When Whitcomb makes these for customers in the future, those pockets will be higher too.
The result is the best fitting and best made pair of chinos I have.
I don’t care so much about the finer making points, like the fact the buttonholes on the waistband and fly are sewn by hand.
More important is the fact the fit is as good as my bespoke trousers (the Blackhorse Lane MTM was great too, but it’s MTM rather than bespoke, and best thought of that way) and that I can now make chinos in any shape and design I want.
The only issues with getting all chinos made bespoke in the future will be cost (it is a lot for casual trousers, there’s no escaping that) and the available materials.
It will be good to see the new Mikutex cottons made up before I use them. And even then, this material isn’t my absolute favourite among chinos – I marginally prefer the right-hand twill of my Armoury ones or Real McCoys ones, but I don’t have a source for that yet.
Still, all of these materials are a world away from the cottons normally used by tailors. This is the only pair of trousers I’ve seen that deserves to be called bespoke chinos.
Photography: Alex Natt @adnatt
Amazing. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post if you / W&S manage to find a right hand twill cloth that works – that is what would push me over the line and get a pair.
An interesting though – what has W&S learnt from you? You guys have done a lot of more experimental stuff together, they must have had their boundaries as a tailor really pushed and this relationship must be very mutually beneficial. Could be a really interesting post
Will do, and true, that would be really interesting
Holland & Sherry have some fantastic 11 & 14 ounce cotton twills
Hi Jeffrey,
They do, and I’ve used many of them over the years. But as mentioned at the start of this article, those are tailoring cloths – they used finer cottons, they have more of a luxe finish, and they’re made to drape. They’re very different from chino cottons.
Very interesting commission Simon, I’ve been wanting to try something like this for some time. It will be very good to see how these chinos age and whether their longevity after several washes is comparable to that of RTW -my biggest fear with something as expensive as this, which you have already addressed-
It really should be as good, plus of course you can get them altered or repaired by the people that made them
Thank you for that. They do look nice.
On a slightly parallel topic, if you don’t mind me asking…
I understand you have young children and have, I think, a child under two? How does the chance of getting messy influence the way you dress around them?
I have a nice selection of clothes curated over the last five years that I tend to wear at work and on the rare occasion that I am socialising away from my toddler. I have a collection of fairly shoddy “high street” clothes that I wear when I’m playing with him, both in the house and out. I always regret looking scruffy when outside the house with him but just cannot take the risk of getting my higher end clothes mucky. Do you have a separate, lower quality wardrobe for wearing “with the kids” or do you take the view that “clothes are made to be worn” and just wear your high end stuff around them?
I still wear quality stuff, just more workwear, which is much tougher and gets better the more you wash and wear it.
So robust jeans or chinos, heavyweight tees, loopwheel sweatshirts, horsehide jackets, boots and so on.
We’ve covered all these over the years on PS, but let me know if you can’t find them after a search
I find the tricky part is when you have to go to events with the family. Recently had to attend a wedding and I made a horrible decision of wearing a cream linen/cotton jacket…*face palm*
Oh dear. Yeah that’s a tricky combination
I guess I haven’t paid attention to how the outer side seam looks on my trousers, but theoretically you can have a nice, straight crease and a straight seam, no? It’s just easier to do one without having to achieve the other?
I see examples of trousers on older posts here that feature both attributes.
Well, it’s unlikely your dress trousers will have a straight outer seam.
On a chino that does have a straight outer seam, you can still put a straight crease down the middle of the trouser, but the trouser itself will be cut to be at a slight angle, like with your legs a little apart. Does that make sense?
What about these, for example? Not perfectly straight but visually not too different from the chinos here. I guess perhaps pictures don’t quite capture it?
Still not quite clear about the “slight angle.” You mean the tailored trousers would be cut slimmer than the chinos?
Yes, as mentioned the pictures don’t capture that difference. The ones you linked to from Saman Amel are cut like tailoring trousers, and look like that too (as are my Stoffa ones, for comparison).
No, the tailored trousers are not cut slimmer.
Imagine you are looking at the trousers laid flat, from above. The legs of jeans and chinos will sit further apart, more open in the legs. A more open ‘V’.
I may not purchase any more chinos because living outside London it is difficult to find ones that I like.I will probably just wear the ecru E5 model from BHL,nice fit and style.
Hello Simon, I’ve been a PS reader since day one, and I think this is the most useful article (for me) in recent memory. Chinos off the rack just don’t work for me for one reason or another, and while I have many pairs of ‘casual’ trousers from my bespoke tailor, they all look – as you say – like tailored trousers! Though I love and wear them regularly (especially in the last 18 months), try as I might, I’ve just not been able to explain adequately to them what’s different about chinos, and how I’d like them made. You may have given me the blueprint to try again! A few questions though if I may; did you change any of the basic dimensions of your existing W&S pattern (i.e. hip, knee, and bottoms)? And do you know if the Mikutex cloth is available to purchase by the length? Lastly, did W&S make any allowances for laundry shrinkage? Would be good to have a follow-up article about performance after a few wears and washes.
Lovely to hear Nick!
Yes, my pattern was different to bespoke. We copied a pair of my chinos instead.
That cloth is not available by the metre, no.
And no, no laundry allowance and I haven’t seen any shrinkage so far.
Impressive Simon. Bravo. I do find chinos fascinating in their breadth and the canvas waist band is an easy to forget driver of both formality and versatility.
Have you considered a “sliding scale” of chinos from workwear to cotton twill trousers? It would be interesting to isolate the contribution of each critical variable (eg design, twill, wash, canvas waist band, colour??)
I have a few MTM chinos where I matched these variables poorly and the final product are stranded in no mans land. For example too smart a fabric but without a waistband or taper (washable stoffa in sand) and very casual twill but with a canvas waistband and very tapered (anglo-italian).
Oh good.
Yes, we did a small scale like that on the review of the Rubato chinos here:
https://www.permanentstyle.com/2021/05/rubato-officers-chinos-review.html
In the PS shop 2022, cheers ?
Afraid not, this is just bespoke from Whitcomb. Sorry
Beautiful pants and an extremely strong outfit. Add a merino sweater for colder days and it perfectly covers 90% of days in non-suit offices.
For me these are too expensive, but then again luckily there are dozens of good RTW makers and with a decent alterations tailor I feel like I can get pretty close nonetheless. Who makes the belt? It’s very nice as well.
Thanks. The belt is Rubato
They have the slight forward curve, and fullness, to the leg, that the original US military ‘pinks’ had.
It’s impossible to source this style of chino at retailers. It makes sense to end the frustration and go bespoke.
Have you tried Orslow chinos? Fairly accurate repro – might be just what you’re looking for.
Thank you. I will look
Hi Simon,
An intriguing idea for a casual pair of trousers and relevant for those who cannot find the perfect fit that they feel comfortable with (this includes myself). What colour would you describe your chinos, from the images it seems like a beautiful olive towards the darker side of the spectrum making them versatile.
Yes, I’d say a dark grey/olive. More pictures of it on the Blackhorse Lane article I link to
Did Blackhorse lane and W&S source the same fabric? Your chinos from Black horse lane and W&S are basically made from the same cloth?
Yes.
Hi Simon, expensive chinos indeed although i see the benefits. I dont know that i have ever found the perfect RTW chinos although some are close there are always small points one would like to change.
With regards to cloth i would suggest that soucing your own to take to the tailors is not a bad option. There are some very good fabric suppliers in London especially who would sell a variety of suitable cotton. They may not be from the finest mills in the world but could certainly provide some good quality robust chino fabric.
Really? Thanks Jim – where would you recommend? I haven’t been able to find robust chino cotton like this
Joel and Sons (Edgeware) Cloth House (soho) the Cloth shop (Portabello road)
Thank you. I’ve tried Cloth House and the Cloth shop, and haven’t seen anything reliable, but I’ll try Joel and Sons.
The problem I often find is that staff in shops like these are not that knowledgeable about menswear fabrics, even if they know a lot about fabric in general. So it’s hard to have confidence you’re getting the right thing – and you won’t know until you’ve made it up, washed and worn it.
Have you found that?
To a certain degree, yes. Although i think one can make a judgement based on seeing the cloth first hand and as many hapy accidents could be expected as there would be failures. The cloth in these places is realtivly cheap and can be bought by the half meter so its easy enough to sample and wash at home. Perhaps thats more effort than sum would be interested in having to put in but these places do have fabric options that wouldnt be available through a tailor who only stocks bunches from the big luxury suppliers. Joel and sons stock cloth from more well known mills so they may be a better option.
Thanks Jim
Hi Simon,
That fabric is perfect, such a shame it’s been discontinued 🙁
Forgive the homage but I’ve been a long time reader (over a decade) and this is my first comment. Your site is the best of it’s kind. Great menswear could not have a better ambassador – discerning, conscientious and most importantly stylish!
I have wanted to thank you for years; your writing has sustained and supplemented my life-long joy and curiosity in relation to clothes and I have learned so very much.
I considered emailing but I want people to see and know!
From deepest darkest Wales – Morgan
Thank you so much Morgan, and thank you for taking the time to write to say so
I love chinos as my go-to casual or weekend trousers. They feel much smarter than jeans, are far more comfortable, and one can be care-free and just throw them in the wash. I’ve alway struggled though to find ones that fit, and particularly be high rise (which I find much more comfortable).
It’s just too bad W&S doesn’t travel to Canada.
I’m sure there are a lot of excellent tailoring involved, but the cut seems very “American Department store”. It looks very loose and too straight on your legs and the waist dips down at the front. It made you look like you have a belly and the belly is pushing down the front of the trousers.
Well, the cut is a fairly standard, roomier chino cut. But that might not be your taste.
On the cut around the waist, this is the same as all my other bespoke trousers from Whitcomb – the majority featured here.
I’m going to guess that part of what you feel is seeing chinos in a tailoring environment. They often look messy, or rumpled, not hanging as well or seeming to fit as well, because of the material and what they are.
I wonder if it’s just a function of how you’re standing (and perhaps the shadows) in the fourth photo, which seems to offer the best view of the leg line. The upper part of the leg does look a bit full in that photo — comparing to what we’ve seen from BLA, Real McCoy’s, Armoury, etc.
This really is a lovely fabric. Do you happen to know the weight?
It is quite a full leg, yes, though very similar to my Armoury pair and BHL – but the Real McCoys ones are slimmer.
I don’t know the weight no, sorry.
Thanks Simon, that’s definitely not my taste, I appreciate this could be a cut which were used back in the day, but for me is very unflattering. It makes you look shorter and bigger on the waist than it should. I can appreciate if someone who has very big legs would have this cut as is very functional as I can imagine this cut was adopted more as a casual work wear allowing the wearer with more movement but it just looks unflattering on your body. I can imagine some purest out there would say this is “the cut”, but for me part of wearing nice clothes and bespoke tailoring is to hide some unflattering features of the wearer and accentuate the good parts to make the wearer “look good”. For me these trousers is the reverse for me.
Hey Phillip,
It’s an interesting area. Trousers in a wider cut can be flattering too, often making your top half looking slimmer for example.
At the very least, I’d say that if you’re aiming for something to be flattering on you, that doesn’t necessarily lead to one particular cut. Some people think larger jackets are more flattering on them, others think tight ones are.
simon
not directly related to chino but very cool cuff bracelet (pic 1), mind I ask were you purchased?
It’s a vintage piece from the southwest US – bought at AntiQlockwise in Hong Kong
Hi Simon. Very interesting article, as always. Would be interested in any thoughts you have on these vs the BHL made to measure, which are a comparible price. What might make one purchase one over the other?
I think there are a few differences, Tom, and of course BHL is almost £100 cheaper.
– The fit on these is better, as you’d expect on bespoke v MTM (and, to be fair, from a bespoke maker that’s made me lots of trousers already)
– These have hand-sewn details, like the hand-sewn buttonholes on the fly, but also elsewhere
– BHL has the advantage that you can try on their existing RTW, and adapt that, so it’s more predictable if you haven’t had bespoke trousers from Whitcomb before
This is interesting. A broader point is that ime any casual trouser made bespoke looks like a formal trouser made with a casual fabric. Do you think W&S could make trousers to this cut with any casual fabric e.g. corduroy?
The price is comparable to Andersen & Sheppard Haberdashery so I am thinking why not go bespoke.
Yes, I can see that. I think casual corduroys would vary, in terms of being cut like trousers or cut like jeans, but most would be the former I think.
Still, the other points here, like the styling and so on, also contribute to them not looking like formal trousers.
Yes, I’m sure Whitcomb could make them in corduroy
Interesting project, Simon. Always great reading your articles. Out of curiosity: what are the measurements of these chinos? I’m especially interested in leg opening and thigh width for research into possible online purchases of rtw chinos. Being shorter I think I would ideally go for a slightly narrower leg opening in an everyday chino.
– Thigh 13.5 inches
– Knee 9.5
– Hem 8
I often have issues finding chinos that fit, so much that I really don’t wear them much (mostly too low of a rise, the same issue I had with jeans prior to Levis Lot 1). These look great.
I’m also a W&S customer, though I live in Los Angeles. Do you know if W&S is planning to offer this as a regular service, taking advantage of the styling and technical details you worked out above? Thanks for doing the leg work for us, Simon!
Yes Justin, they are. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.
I love cotton trousers and have had many made by my tailor in ‘stylo jeans’ as they say in Naples. The problem, as you allude, is the sourcing of fabrics. The fine, color saturated cottons that I got from Zegna and Dugdale proved to be very prone to fading from the sun, mostly on the upper front leg. I tend to enjoy sitting in the sun. This meant that after one year the trousers had become almost only good for gardening. I then tried using blends, wool and cotton and wool and linen, but they did not have the same casual feel nor were they as comfortable in the summer as pure cotton. It would be great if more chino type fabrics, maybe even garment washed, could be offered to tailors. I think the fading from garment washing reduces somewhat the sun fading risk. I have also tried to buy off the rack cotton trousers and chinos, but nothing fits or is as comfortable as what a tailor, who knows yours fit, can produce.
Interesting, thanks Feurich.
Just to clarify on garment washing – this is not the cloth supplied, but washing after the trousers are made. So the tailor would have to make them up, then find a local industrial washing facility that was willing to wash one pair, rather than the dozens they normally do. And be confident in the result. The complication of this latter process is why few tailors offer it.
I actually think bespoke (or even MTM) chino trousers are one of the best investments most guys can make to their wardrobe. Certainly as work is much more casual now in many industries, you’ll get the most wear from a pant like this, and I find shirts are easier to buy off the rack than pants. In addition, the look of a bespoke chino has a much more ‘put together’, tailored look, allowing the reader to indulge in tailored design but ‘fit in’ with the crowd in the office, so to say. I work in finance and see khakis all the time, but a tailored version quietly elevates the look in an easy way. I’d argue this is the wave of the future.
“Another way to think about it is that jeans are cut as if the wearer is riding a horse, with their legs unnaturally far part” – is that because jeans were originally worn by cowboys?
Lovely pair of chinos. I’ve generally been able to find RTW chinos that fit me but certainly something I’d consider in future. I’d (sadly) certainly get more use out of them than anything dressier.
You mention the Mikutex cotton canvas has been discontinued. Is there any stock remaining anywhere or are we going to have to wait for the replacement or find an alternative?
I don’t think it is, Tommy, because jeans were originally made for workers, on railroads and elsewhere, not for cowboys.
I don’t know what the origins are of the cut are, but I can ask around. I guess that stance might also be more practical for manual labour in some way.
On the cloth, Whitcomb are currently trying the fabric that Mikutex is offering instead.
I really like the idea of chinos but if i ever make a pair id make them like the cos chinos i wear now, like a little bit more on the trousers side but also roomier on the upper leg. But then they wouldnt look like bespoke ones.. Anyways really interesting post that ill surelly read after 2-3 weeks again like i did with the bag post. By the way, i am thinking that something i miss a lot is a really small “bag” that is capable of carrying my iphone, my card-wallet my car and home keys. I dont carry more things than that but i find it really annoying to overstuff all my pockets or to scratch my wallet or my handy. Id like something that looks manly, is small and classy and can possibly fit at winter in a coat pocket. Do you have any idea of anything ?
This project I did is my favourite for that kind of bag.
But looking masculine is the issue. Anything at that scale has a bit of that issue.
The belt you wear in the pictures is from? I’m on the lookout for a suede number. Thanks
From Rubato. Covered in our piece on Rubato here
Hey Simon, what’s the leg opening on these?
Eight inches
Will W&S be using this as an offering going forward?
Yes. As mentioned they’re just trying the replacement fabric
Surely the menswear holy grail? Credit to W&S for finally working it out where everyone else failed! They look brilliant
Its funny, to me (and my income is lower than most here), the cost is ok. Tailored trousers that I’d wear far less often feel far more ‘expensive’ to me, than chinos which I’d wear maybe several times a week. A great fitting pair is well worth the investment in my opinion.
My only request here Simon is that there are multiple follow ups with how these age. That will be fascinating.
Will do Chris
Simon
Have you looked at Hewitt Heritage Fabrics https://heritagefabrics.co.uk/product-range/?
No, I haven’t, looks promising though. Have you tried them?
Unfortunately I haven’t but like you I think they look promising. Looking at their chino twill it appears to run left to right. We all await your road testing and report.
I should say I have nothing to do with the company and do not know them at all I am just intrigued if Britain is producing a fabric to take on the best of Japanese high end denim and chino twill.
Further with the vast breadth of “chino” trousers would you categorise the more workwear style that you have created here as “khakis”?
I wouldn’t get into khakis v chinos really, no. Khaki is really a colour, and chino a style. Both are used in different ways too, and I think adding in khakis wouldn’t make things any clearer.
I think it’s more accurate to describe these as workwear chinos. There are then smart chinos (eg Rubato) and finally tailored cotton trousers. Three categories
Would W&S be able to do smart chinos akin to Rubato’s?
I don’t know to be honest. The make would be similar, but the cloth would be different, and I don’t either of us have looked into sourcing these cottons enough yet to know what that material would be. Doubtless this is just a first step along this more casual road though.
I have to agree with Phillip above. Not the most flattering IMO. I am all for looser cuts and straight legs, but personally I would have added an inch to the rise.
I am keen on understanding this jeans pattern vs tailored trouser pattern – the straight line vs curved line. Perhaps you can explain with the help of a diagram?
Hey Zo,
An inch on the rise wouldn’t have worked for me. As discussed on our previous piece on rises, I’ve found the rise needs to be here on me, or a good 2-3 inches higher. Otherwise it will just slip down to this point.
Deciding on the best rise for you is always a combination of fit and look. You can’t necessarily have the perfect placement, because the trousers have to function as well.
On the pattern, sure I can do, although actually just lying the two pairs of trousers flat would also do that. I can try it at some point.
Out of curiosity, how high is the front rise on this pair?
12 inches
This is a fascinating article. I had no idea that chinos have a straight side seam, but that explains why they can’t be pressed effectively with a centre crease. Do pleated chinos also have the straight side seam? I think this article also has also convinced me that bespoke chinos aren’t worth it for me as long as I can find ready-to-wear chinos that fit me decently, but it has convinced me that dress cotton gabardine trousers are different enough from chinos that they are worth getting MTM.
Hey Matt,
You could press a centre seam into a chino, it’s just that it will not always look perfectly straight on the wearer, if that makes sense. A lot of the time no on would notice though.
Yes, it’s the same cut whether pleated or not.
Sorry to be the dissenting voice here but these aren’t chinos, they are well cut cotton trousers.
Isn’t the whole point with chinos that they look rugged and slightly louche to offer a real alternative to jeans ?
I’ve long been an advocate of Officine Generale Fisherman’s Chino.
The cut, quality and character are off the Richter scale and at €185 a pop, you can’t go wrong.
Yes, and these are rugged. They’ve been freshly pressed, so they don’t look that rugged now, but they’re just as strong as hard wearing as any other chinos, most obviously the Blackhorse Lane ones previously covered in the same cloth.
What are the best classic tan RTW chinos available to buy now? I keep waiting for a restock of The Armoury chinos in the classic tan color, but it seems to not be a priority for them. Thanks!
We’ve been steadily reviewing the options Kristian – did you see the list of others we’ve covered, to the top right of this article? (On desktop)
What are the socks you are wearing under the chinos? I would find this colour very useful with several pairs of trousers.
It’s a pretty standard dark green. Mine are from Bresciani, but Mes Chaussettes Rouges has a big range
Thank you for the article.
Hello Simon,
Thank you. Very informative.
As someone who is required by necessity to wear less formal and more hard wearing trousers daily, I, too, have tried chinos from the tailors with similar results to those you describe.
On the basis of your article on The Real McCoy’s chinos, I purchased a pair, and have just received a second, which is testament to both your article and the product. I am also enjoying the adaptive process of wearing them in and see a long future together.
I was wondering, therefore, if you had found significant differences between the two makes, other than, one would assume, a better fit and the availability of a greater range of colours?
Nice to hear Andrew.
Between the Real McCoys ones and these Whitcomb ones you mean?
Yes there are a few differences:
– The material of the Real McC is stiffer and a left-hand twill
– The Whitcomb fits better, and me much better
– The Whitcomb has more handwork, like the buttonholes
– With the Whitcomb of course you can pick what materials, fit, details etc you want
Thank you Simon.
I would be keen to try.
Do you envisage a long wait before W & S source a suitable alternative material?
I wouldn’t have thought so. They’re already trialling the new one
Simon do you feel with chinos – either flat fronted or pleated and indeed cotton trousers that it is generally best to avoid ironing/pressing a centre crease and simply iron them flat as you would jeans? Which option looks best/most elegant do you feel?
I would usually put a crease in tailored cotton trousers, but not in anything more casual.
Generally it will suit smarter trousers, and look unusual with more robust ones. That tends to look best into my eye, but of course some people want a more unusual look too
Interesting article. Thank you. What are your thoughts on using one of the Ventile cloths for casual chinos like these (perhaps a lighter weight version than is used in coats)?
I’m thinking pitch-side Dad who wants to be able to deal with all (winter) weather (wind, rain, cold, snow) without cracking out the plastic trousers when it’s chucking it down or blowing a gale – a common occurrence in the micro-climates of the pitch-sides I frequent – but also wants to appear well put together without looking like he’s trying too hard and out of place.
I have a pair of Ventile trousers (from Klaetermusen) that work well for windy, damp and snowy days, but are far too outdoorsy in styling, so relegated to skiing and cycle touring. Just finding any RTW chino options in Ventile seems impossible, let alone one that fits well. So, bespoke seems like the only route – or is Ventile not suitable as a smart casual chino fabric? If not, what would fit the bill?
Interesting KT, I never thought of that.
I think my first instinct is that Ventile is always going to be a little too ourdoorsy and practical, and that would go for anything other waterproof material as well. Ventile is probably the most natural and even smartest. So there may not be a solution there.
If I were spending a lot of time in those kinds of conditions, I think I’d go for a calf length waterproof coat and big boots, so little or no trouser were exposed.
We’re these made in London or via WS offshore bespoke? Does WS offer both options for bespoke chinos, and if so what is the price difference?
Offshore, and I believe that’s the only option with these, but I can confirm with them
Confirmed, yes, there’s only the offshore option – so cut, basted and finished in London, but with the make in the middle done overseas.
Hi Simon, this is an interesting project and it’s quite remarkable that you achieved something that you are so happy with. The price is also very appealing for a bespoke pair, especially in comparison to the BHL MTM pair.
In that regards, how much of the excellent fit of this pair do you attribute to W&S already having a very accurate trouser pattern for you, as well as the extra attention you likely receive from them? I am considering whether to go with BHL or W&S, and my gut feeling is that it is less risky to go with BHL for a one-off pair as it is based on existing trousers you can try on.
I think that’s probably right, John, that would be less risky.
I don’t think, I really don’t, that it makes any difference with Whitcomb who I am. Because I see just as good fit on many other customers. But if you’ve had bespoke before, you’ll know it isn’t always nailed first time around.
Thank you Simon, this is really interesting. So to cut a real chino you need more fabric then a normal pair of trousers in order to lay on the salvage both sides? Basically wasting half of the fabric. is that correct.
take care
mirko
Hi Mirko,
No, you don’t need much more fabric. You just cut the trouser leg at a slightly different angle, with one side running down the edge of the cloth.
It’s only a small change in the angle of the leg, so it doesn’t make a big difference.
You had me too until I saw the flap pocket… no thanks!
Well, of course being bespoke you can have those pockets however you want… unlike anything ready made
Simon, for casual chinos, what are your thoughts on rolling the hem? I have in between inseam for off-the-rack and sometimes all that’s left in my waist size is an even longer inseam. So I do a double roll and find that, like a formal cuff, the added weight helps with drape. But visually, what’s your take?
I like it. I often fold back the hem at least once – on some trousers I find it’s nice to try both, for a shorter look that shows more sock, and one that doesn’t.
In general, I’d say a fold back or roll is more casual.
See example here
Hi Simon,
I know this has been a topic discussed previously but I would really appreciate your opinion: Over the years I have had many bespoke cotton trousers made in different types of cloth for the purpose of achieving a more elegant look as you could see on the Pommella IG account. I have opted for a mid-rise and side adjusters in my commissions and would usually go with one pleat. However, I have come to realise that those trousers will just never be as comfortable as my old Rota Sport chinos in which I could lie on the sofa reading a book and feeling like wearing tracksuit trousers. Do you think this is due to the factors you point out in your review such as different patterns (jeans vs. dress trousers) and others or would you say that level of comfort could generally be achieved with a bespoke trouser maker using a different fabric with some level of stretch to it.
Thanks very much in advance. Would really appreciate your opinion and hear whether you think it’s worth chasing that dream of having bespoke cotton trousers that are as comfortable as my Rota Sport ones.
Best,
Raphael
No worries Raphael.
I don’t think it’s a matter of the cut points raised here. It’s much more likely to be the material – the stretch, but also the softness. A tailored cotton is designed to keep an elegant line, and softness is not the top priority.
For example, I’d happily lounge around in that way in my workwear chinos (with no stretch) but wouldn’t be as comfortable doing so in tailored cottons
Hey Simon, this is really interesting. For myself, I dress majority of the time, smart casual, and I own about 10chinos from brooks brother in grey, light grey, stone, brown, navy and khaki, purchased just 10 years ago, I’m thinking since I wear them so much, maybe I should start buying a bespoke one. Is there any fabric you recommend from some specific mills that combines comfort and durability to a perfect level? Btw, is there a way to have a chino sit steadily at my natural waist just with a side tab? I mean a Hollywood style flat front pant without the loop. Thanks man and happy new year!
Hey George
Yes, I talk in the piece here about the best materials for chinos? Did you see that?
And on fit, yes bespoke should always be able to do that – with chinos as with dress trousers
Got it, I got a problem of not reading in details lol. I wonder what’s your view of getting a single pleat in a cotton chino? I wonder if cotton fabric can hold its shape like wool, or the pleats will just get stretch open and keep open? Thanks man
They will stay open more, probably. But some wool can be worse, if for example it’s soft and lightweight
This is interesting. One thing I still can’t make sense of: the pattern of chinos work from the outside leg and cut as if you are riding a horse. If the chinos are made as if the legs are unnaturally far apart then when you are in a normal posture(shoulder apart) wouldn’t you have excess cloth on the outside leg and it sitting flush on the inside leg?
You do, to a small extent. These are small differences in the pitch of the leg, and in a smooth, fine, draped cloth like that used on suit trousers, you might notice the difference. But you may well not do on chinos, until you start wondering points like this about why trousers look different
A lovely shade of green. What color is this marketed as? I’d describe it as green fatigue. I have chinos in a similar color and I’ve worn them with navy, light grey, and brown sports jackets, and with sweaters of a variety of shades.
It’s just called green, but I’d say it was a dark olive. It’s browner than fatigues I think as well as being darker
Simon,
I’d like to go this route and order a custom pair of Bespoke Chino’s but I’m having a hard time sourcing a chino fabric in a certain shade of brown that I’m very fond of. How did Whitcomb go about procuring the fabric from Mikutex? Do you know of any note worthy mills that Huntsman/ my local tailor in San Francisco would be able to draw from? Thanks
I gave Whitcomb the contact for Mikutex, but most mills like that don’t sell to individuals, and not even small tailors.
I’m afraid sourcing appropriate materials for chinos like this by the metre is one of the biggest challenges.
Would it be possible to share the contact? I’d like to ask Ed if he’d be able to source some metreage for me. Though I imagine Huntsman should have something in store for me.
Sure, it’s [email protected]. However, please ask the tailor to contact them, rather than you as the end customer, please.
To be honest I’d be surprised if Huntsman do have anything. I’ve never found a tailor that has coarse chino material like this – none of the mills or merchants they work with supply it.
I just had a conversation with Ed and Michael about it, seems you’re right on that.
Unfortunate how there’s a servere lack of a more relaxed/casual bespoke garments. Though I’m willing to take the extra mile and seeing what I can accomplish through experimentation with Ralph in the States.
Do you know if they send out swatches?
Thanks again for your help, really excited about moving forward with this now.
I think they can send swatches, yes. But bear in mind they’re more used to orders by brands too, rather than a couple of metres going to a tailor.
In terms of availability, the problem is that having something so casual made bespoke is a pretty niche market…
I was trying to find an article on whether to have a turn up on my chinos or not. I recently bought a pair of flat front rota twill trousers and need to have them hemmed, I am unsure to do a turn up. I do have pairs of Drakes and Incotex that are both finished without, but wanted to get your opinion.
Hey – on a smart pair of chinos like that it’s the same as any tailored trousers really, as covered here
Orvis made a good classic fit chino with 18″ bottoms. Do you have any suggestions for a good quality alternative.
Hi Simon, I have a question about the length of the trousers. Most of my trousers are similar in length or ever so slightly shorter than yours. Still, sometimes I feel pretty annoyed when they sway or get shorter after sitting for an extended period, especially cotton trousers.
I understand the length of the trousers depends on personal taste, but I wondered which length you would say they are too short? If I observed them correctly, I think yours are just touching or slightly passing the shoes from the photos above. Have you had this kind of experience too?
Many thanks,
Jack
Hi Jack,
Yes it does happen sometimes. And mine do just touch the top of the shoe, sometimes a touch longer.
There’s no solution to them then feeling slightly short sometimes when you walk – something one length standing still will always be quite different when you walk.
But, you can and should press trousers like cottons or linens, or have them a touch longer. That you can do something about
Simon! Would need your advice on the fit of workwear chinos.
I would be buying a pair of chinos from ‘jack and jones’ and was confused between regular fit and slim fit. I do not have a very showy tummy, but moderately thick thighs and i should point out that i am relatively a shorter guy with height of 5 feet 7 inch.
What in the end would be more flattering for workwear chinos and more easy to alter. Regular fit or slim fit?
I’m afraid I don’t know anything about those chinos, Monty, and fits mean very different things from different brands. So I can’t really comment
Hey Simon,
What type of stitch do they use at the hem on these? Is it a typical invisible stitch that washes in or some sort of other stitch? Also what’s the distance from the stitch to the bottom? I’m getting som chinos hemmed. And I like this look.
A chino typically has a visible stitch, going straight through the cloth, and that’s what these have. It’s 4cm from the bottom. If you have any other chinos, maybe have a look at those too
Hi Simon, how would you clean single pleated dress chinos? Should I do light dry cleaning or machine wash?
Many thanks,
Jack
What does the care label say Jack?
It said ‘light dry clean’ and ‘wash and dried reverse side’. If I dry clean them, I am concerned if the material will be affected over time, and if I wash, I am not sure if I could make those pleats myself again, and concerned dress cotton may turn it into something like work chinos…
I would dry clean Jack. It won’t damage the material if you do it sparingly – only when you have to, brushing and pressing in between, or spot cleaning if you have to
Hey Simon I was curious if you throw in the washing machine your bespoke cotton trousers like these or the cerrato ones
Hi Fernando,
Have you read the article? One of the central points is that bespoke chinos cannot be machine washed, but these chinos can – that’s why I helped develop them.
lol sorry you are right. Read it long time ago forgot about it and came up with the cuestion the other day…
No worries – any more detailed questions do shout
Great article – many thanks Simon.
After my adventures with off the peg chinos – documented on another thread – I have decided to give W&S a try. I am only a relatively recent customer with them and am currently going through the process of getting my first commissions right, so, hopefully I am not acting too soon.
There were three rolls of the chino material available to look at when I visited last week. I chose the stone color as it looked the most versatile.
I was advised that a key difference between the W&S Chinos and the light flannels I am having made is that “there is no formal waistband”. When I look at the photos above, I can clearly seeing a waistband albeit that the photos appear to show that the material for the waistband is contiguous with the material for the rest of the trousers. Is the lack of separation what they meant? Have I misunderstood what was said?
Also, looking at yours, I wondered about a button fly vs a zip fly. I have specified a zip, but was wondering if there was any practical reason you went for a button fly? A style reason? Or just personal preference?
Yes, there isn’t really a waistband, just a line of stitching, and it has no internal lining, which makes it easier to machine wash.
The button fly was to be more authentic to old chinos, and to allow a bit of fine handwork to be used. But actually most of the time I have a zip on trousers
Great. Thanks Simon.
To the early part of this thread where Rota is mentioned, I have just noticed that Rota now have a Made To Order service. The PS shorts, made by Rota, are great and have been seeing heavy use in the recent hot weather. I did wonder what the comparison of a Rota style chino vs what W&S are doing is? Am guessing that the Rota product is going to me more like tailored cotton trousers than traditional chinos? Also, that I can see, the material for Rota chinos does not have the weight of the W&S offering?
Do you have any experience/feedback from your contacts on the Rota MTO offering (not just their chinos)?
I’m afraid I don’t RDH, sorry. I haven’t tried that service on Rota generally.
However, they certainly do chinos that aren’t like tailored cottons. But they will be more similar to an Incotex or other Italian chino – soft, light, garment washed often. Quite different to the chinos we normally cover, and W&S is making.
Simon, do you know if W&S managed to find an alternate source of chino fabric? I was thinking about going down the MTM route with Blackhorse lane but they now require 2 in-person fittings. I’m based on the west coast of the US where W&S travels (according to their website 6 times a year), so it’s much easier for me to see W&S once in London for an initial consultation and then 1-2 fittings (I imagine no more) in LA or other cities in the US than to see Blackhorse Lane in London for fittings.
I’m afraid I don’t Dominic, no. I can ask next time I’m in, or if you hear first then let us all know here too.
I checked in with them, they found a replacement and have an off-white (maybe equivalent to stone? I haven’t seen the swatches but I feel like usually the lightest off-white chino color is usually called stone), khaki, and navy (currently out of stock). They previously had an olive as well, but it seems like that’s been discontinued
Thanks Dominic.
Stone usually implies a pale off-white, yes, but also one with a touch of grey or even brown in there – basically, no yellow, no richness etc
Hello Simon,
Amazing post,
I was wondering what is the fabric chosen for the pocket inside of chino? I assume it must be cotton.
Would you think cotton fot pocket would go well with wool trouser? Would other options such as Cupro, Viscose perform better for wool trouser?
Thank you
It’s cotton, yes, and cotton could be nice on a heavier wool trouser
Hi Simon,
I see W&S are offering bespoke shirts too. Have you tried those at all?
Ben
I did once, yes Ben. They were nicely made, but I prefer the cut and style of the other makers I use
Thanks Simon. Would I be right to assume they are more English in style, perhaps similar to a T&A or Budd with a stiffer collar than your preferred shirts from Luca?
Yes
Hi Simon, I am searching for some simple, well made, well priced chinos, but not workwear. I know Private White and BLA both do good ones, plus both have MTM options – at a cost.
Is there anything else I should consider, particularly RTW? I like a balanced fit, certainly not tight, and a high rise. Usually I opt for pleats, too.
Cheers, Jonathan
Hi Jonathan,
To be honest that’s not the kind of chino I wear that much anymore – except for the Rubato ones, which I think are the best I’ve tried in that area.
I would just make sure you avoid any stretch, and not too slim a leg.
Okay – thanks, Simon. I notice that Anglo-Italian have washable cotton trousers of a similar style. Perhaps more ‘tailored’ than a typical chino, but presumably quite versatile. I might try them.
I think it has taken me too long to realise just how much trousers affect overall style. They really can make or break. I think your guidance about length is applicable here: it is more length that can look sloppy, less width…within reason, of course.
Regards,
Jonathan
Absolutely, particularly as fewer people wear jackets and shirts. Trousers add such subtle style
Hi Simon,
It sounds like you would class these as more of the “workwear” sort of chino, is that right?
I’m looking for a smart chino, to fit something like the “casual chic” wardrobe you’ve described so well before. I’d love to get the fit of bespoke too. Would you suggest going with this chino cut and simply a finer cotton (perhaps one of the tailoring cottons)? Or would you think it better to simply go for typical tailored cotton trousers with a standard cut? Interested to see what you think.
J
I’d go with typical tailored cotton trousers in that case, yes
Dear Simon – couple of questions please
1. Why are the Casa Atlantic chinos so soft even if the cloth is heavy, Vs. say McCoy that is more starchy/crisp. Surely it’s not just the starch because that washes away eventually. I’m not sure it is the weave either. So is it some other chemical treatment that makes the cloth more crispy/makes it retain the crease better?
2. Any cloth book reccos if I want chinos that are on the smarter side, and in the 300-350g weight? Any Japanese ones that can be sourced? What about Brisbane Moss or H&S?
Thank you
BW
1. It will be partly the cotton, but much more the density of the weave. The McCoy should soften over time as well, while still having that body.
2. I wouldn’t really recommend chinos being made bespoke at all – they’re always like tailored cotton trousers, not chinos. See post here.
Hi!
Could you tell me how the hem is finished? I see that it is folded inwards, but how many times – once, twice? Also, how high up is the top stitching from the edge of the hem?
Thanks!
Hey John – some of it is up to you, being bespoke, but I suggest you talk to Whitcomb for the details