Tailored cotton trousers are, in my experience, an absolute bastard to get right.
I had my first pair made with Anderson & Sheppard seven years ago. The colour was perfect (a light stone grey), as was the cut. But they always felt like old man's trousers, and I couldn't figure out why.
Since then I've tried a couple of times again, with mixed success. The best was probably the Dalcuore ones I had made last summer, in a Drapers cotton.
That was better because it was matte and stiff. But probably too stiff for some - and most other cottons are too shiny and too strong in colour.
The central issue, often, is that what we expect from a cotton trouser is basically a ready-to-wear chino - as we have come to know from Gap, Incotex or similar.
But those trousers are garment washed. This means they are made and then washed en masse, to soften the material, soften the colour, and perhaps fade the seams and edges.
A tailor or someone offering made-to-measure can't do this. They don't have access to a garment-washing facility, or the necessary volumes. The only exceptions I know are 100 Hands for shirts (who are building their own washing facility); and Zaremba in Poland, who uses a local washing facility there.
The first thing that attracted me to Stoffa trousers, therefore, was that Agyesh achieves something similar in his exclusive fabrics.
Developing proprietary fabrics is expensive, and something few small brands do. But it's central to Stoffa.
Agyesh wants to be able to create the perfect material, in the same way he wants to be able to control the quality and the fit. Just offering trousers made in Italy from the same books as everyone else does not attract him.
Plus, he's a fabric nut. We spent ages talking about this at Milano Unica in February, and it's evident in the sample materials he's currently offering as one-offs to existing clients. There's some weird stuff in there.
When it comes to the trousers, this work means he can create something like this basket weave, which is only lightly piece-dyed, creating light and dark areas in the texture.
The result is a trouser that I think feels much more like RTW chinos - but of course, made to your fit and specs.
Pictured is my first pair, completed a couple of months ago.
I went for the taupe-coloured basketweave cotton, with a flat front, 5cm turn-ups and side adjustors. There's also a cotton twill which has a slightly deeper colour, though still softer than anything normally offered bespoke.
The leg is slimmer that what I'd normally have for a smarter trouser, but is deliberately similar to my Incotex chinos and Levi's denim - and I've found that the cut works with Neapolitan jackets, if not with more structured ones.
I knew from long experience where the trousers should sit on my hips (they can't be any higher without being two inches further up, on the natural waist, and that's not a look I like).
And as you'd expect Agyesh was very involved when it came to getting the right fit through the seat, thighs and so on.
I've deliberately pictured them after several hours of wearing, so you can see how the cotton wrinkles, without the knees bagging or the trouser generally losing its shape.
It's soft, but not slouchy.
Interestingly, Agyesh's process involves one or two fittings, then washing and wearing the completed trousers a couple of times, before returning them to finish the bottoms.
That's why the cuffs on these trousers have a crease halfway down. Excess material has been left in there to lengthen them if needed after washing and wearing.
Which I did need, adding an extra centimetre on one leg and two on the other.
The make on the trousers is neat and strong, without delving into any decorative handwork.
Nice skirt on the inside of the waistband; nice tack stitches to secure the stress points; just no pick stitching or anything non-functional.
The waistband is slightly extended and fastens with two buttons, its shape echoing the side adjustor that it faces. The internal fastening is also a single well-placed button.
It's all elegant, well-considered and non-fussy, basically: exactly what you'd expect from Stoffa.
I have to say I'm very pleased with the trousers, and they've become my default chino. I've now ordered the brown, and over time hope to gradually replace my Incotex.
It's also nice given I found the suede flight jacket I ordered wasn't quite my style - well-done as it was. It's given me a very good reason to use Stoffa, and I'm also considering other things such as the shirt jacket (probably cream wool/silk).
One other thing to bear in mind with Stoffa, by the way, is that the shades vary slightly with each piece of the fabric made. So don't be surprised if the taupe you see is slightly different to the one I had.
The trousers start at $275. Agyesh is next in London from June 13-15, and now has a permanent store in New York, at 54 Mercer Street.
He is also now travelling to Paris - details by contacting customercare@stoffa.co (who are very good, by the way - efficient and polite).
In the images I am wearing:
- Cream shetland sweater from Trunk (their in-house Berwick model)
- Tan-suede loafers from Gaziano & Girling (Classic collection, see post here)
- Button-down shirt in PS Oxford striped cloth
- Socks from Bresciani via Trunk
Photography: Jamie Ferguson @jkf_man
Hi,
Really nice post! Was interested if perhaps you could elaborate more on cotton trousers in general (what makes them look old-mannish, what makes them not work etc.)?
Also, I seem to remember you had some Whitcombe and Shaftsbury heavy fox cotton trousers made, how did those work?
I find the most important thing is the cloth.
Most cottons made for tailoring are too strong in colour, too deeply dyed, or too shiny. Look at the ones offered, particularly by English mills. They’re trying to make a cotton into a dressy trouser like a worsted, when what men usually want is something softer in colour, more like the chinos they know. There are some alternatives – such as the shaved cotton being offered by Anglo-Italian for instance – but they’re rare.
The second thing about the cloth is that garment-washed aspect mentioned in the piece. That is what makes a chino and chino for most people. It’s very hard to replicate in a tailored trouser. I think lightly piece-dyed fabrics like those from Stoffa come closest.
And then there’s cut. This is hard to illustrate and will be both personal and cultural, but in general a cotton trouser needs to be cut slimmer than a dress trouser. As cotton doesn’t drape well, it just can’t look elegant like a dress trouser will. It should be slimmer.
And those Whitcomb ones worked very well, but that cotton was very coarse and heavy, so it had no problem looking casual.
I’ve always been puzzled by the term “garment washed”. I assume it is a rather intensive process, eating away a good portion of the fabric in order to give it a “lived in” look. (While on this topic, what exactly is “enzyme washed”?) Or is garment washing more akin to a trip to the washing machine, same as found in most households? Thanks
Exactly, garment washed just means washing the whole garment before selling. It’s more intense than a domestic washing machine, and might be done more than once to get the right affect, but it doesn’t usually involve enzymes, which are only used if you really want to break the material down
In light of your comments about the difficulty of getting cotton trousers right, what would you say about your white P. Johnson ones your recently posted on Instagram? I think they look great.
Good point, they were good. Definitely chinos, not really smart enough for tailoring, bit that cloth – Loro Piana Denim – is great. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s available any more. My Saman Amel ones were in it too
Do you think it could have worked as well, or almost as well, with a cotton gabardine? Would you say that what makes it work is the color too?
Cotton gabardine yes, but would be a tailored cotton trouser. Nothing like a chino. That’s a cotton suit really
But then do you think that would make them look old-mannish (using gabardine)? Or would they be fine, by virtue of the color being lighter? I’m just trying to narrow down what the problem is with dress cotton trousers. I’d also say these trousers from Stoffa are a step up in formality from Incotex chinos and personally I wouldn’t replace the latter with the former. Same thing with your Dalcuore ones.
I think they would risk that, yes. They also don’t have much sharpness to them – the best there I think is the stiff Dalcuore ones.
And yes you’re right, these Stoffa ones are a bit smarter than normal chinos. But I think they’re the closest you get without mass garment washing.
what is shaved cotton and how is it different from normal cotton?
The surface is trimmed more than other cotton materials – it’s a finishing technique. It makes it a tiny bit more matte
Hi Simon
Could you tell us more about these tailoring denims? They seem to be really successful for white and cream trousers
Good point Alex, they have been. I think part of the problem though is that none of them are really denim, they’re more ‘inspired’ by the denim look. Which does’t affect how nice they are, but it’s hard to define what makes them work well and then try and find it elsewhere. Zegna Denim for example is another bunch I liked, not available any more, but it was completely different in feel to the LP one
Would you clarify your Ciffonelli jacket (and trousers, I believe) as similarly denim-inspired, or are those a true denim, just in fine cotton?
It’s hard to say because there is no clean definition, nor are the differences binary – they’re often a question of degree.
But I’d probably say the Cifonelli material was still not true denim, even if it was closer than these materials.
Good to read this as it allows me to ask afew questions …
Firstly, what’s with the price of Incotex ? I started buying them after hearing of them thru PS and find them my go to trousers but over the last couple of years the price seems to have been inflated to beyond my reach ?
Baggy knees on chinos ! What’s the cause and how to avoid ?
On the subject of cotton trousers , more specifically chinos , should one go with a crease or without ?
I know, it’s frustrating isn’t it? Rather like Common Projects. They became popular and felt they could raise prices.
Baggy knees can be ironed out. Put them on the board, warm them up with a little steam and heat, then stretch the leg straight, and repeat. When they’re straight again, iron flat.
No creases on chinos. On a cotton trouser you intend to be more dressy, yes, but not on a chino
I have several pairs of medium weight cotton/linen mix trousers from Luxire. The finish effect is like a basketweave, and one pair looks exactly as yours do in the photos in terms or texture, color and style.
Because luxire have my pattern perfected, the fit is very precise, but they are about $100 a pair less expensive than yours.
Thank you.
This of course will not matter to some people, but they are also made in India, rather than being made in Italy. Compared to the Luxire trousers I have commissioned, the Stoffa ones are also slightly better made (fineness and precision of stitching, mostly).
Probably bering made in Italy and having slightly finer stitching etc is, to most people, not worth an extra $100.
It certainly would not to the majority of folk I know who seek out great value rather than paying over the odds when they don’t need to.
Just thinking.
You’re right, it wouldn’t.
There are, of course, many other benefits to working with Stoffa.
One is the original cloth development mentioned here, and original design in general (though perhaps less important with trousers than, for example, outerwear).
A second is meeting the company in person, having that relationship and being able to interact more easily. Plus that person is usually Agyesh, who I’d pay to talk to about style.
And a third is the customer service and general professionalism, which is better at Stoffa than any other craft company I’ve ever dealt with, I think. And I know a fair few people have had issues on that score with Luxire.
As a general point of comparison, also worth considering that you’d pay that price for RTW trousers made in Italy from a lot of brands. In regular cloths.
Someone above asked about creases on these more casual trousers . As you noted you don’t like creases on chinos, would you have these ironed out when dry cleaned (or maybe ask Stoffa not to crease them in the first place)?I was curious if a mark would be left.
I don’t count these as chinos actually, so I’d keep a crease in them.
But no, a mark wouldn’t be left at this stage if you ironed the crease out. Only after a lot of wear.
…”and slightly better made.” Having tried both, I think Simon is being polite. But that difference means something to many, if not some and is well worth $100.
I’ve been interested in Luxire for a while but the reviews and the cost (certainly for the Italian mill cloth) have meant I’ve continued with Tailors like Simone Abbarchi and Luca Avatible .
Would be interested to know what cloths other have used in Luxire
I have many trousers made by Luxire with VBC and Dugdale cloth, the latter in linen, moleskin and cord.
At about £140 its a no brainer.
Try Officene Generale for chinos.
They are a better quality and more stylish than Incotex and are a better price.
Jumping in with 12 month old price information! Incotex trousers purchased at Slowear in NYC…. I bought two pair of their doeskin (similar to brushed cotton) trousers. Total cost was $825 USD with tax for both.
Simon
I know you say not to judge fit from photos but they do look to fit extremely well! How much does Stoffa charge for such trousers in the UK?
They quote in dollars – $275
If that’s the UK price, that’s extremely reasonable!
Stoffa does charge extra if you do not fit according to their already existing patterns. I’m smaller so they do need to make a separate pattern.
Last time I checked it was $800 additional to make a custom pattern for their outerwear and $400 for their trousers. At that point, is it even worth pursuing? Can Stoffa find a way to offer a lower pricing?
Interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks – I’ll clarify with Agyesh in a fortnight when he’s here too
That’d be great. The price quoted last time from customer care was $500 for outerwear, but the traveling sales person mentioned those other two prices (from memory I think those were the figures).
Yes, thanks for asking Agyesh. I’ve also contacted customer care who’s consulting their team. Appreciated Simon, since I haven’t met Agyesh but would ljke to!
Is there a way to contact Agyesh directly via email?
I was just told that creating a custom pattern is $500 but that they can’t do a design that is smaller than the current line. But that’s a bit bizarre, since the purpose of the custom pattern is to make a design that is size-specific—
No, it all goes through customer support I’m afraid
Did you get the chance to clear this up with Agyesh?
No, sorry. I don’t think it will gain much that what you would get from normal Stoffa service or appointments though
Interesting article and the price seems reasonable. How varied can this price be, is there a large price range for the fabric options?
Also can I ask if you machine wash these? I assume you do based upon what you’ve said in the article.
No, the fabrics are largely the same price.
And no, I’d still dry clean them only.
I’m curious as to why you wouldn’t wash them, given that they’re cotton and you like that garment washed effect
Both the fabric and the structure inside wouldn’t cope well with machine washing – they’re intended to be dry cleaned.
And in any case, just washing occasionally at home probably wouldn’t create a garment washed effect – garment washing is an industrial process.
Hope that makes sense
Hey Simon are these chinos machine masheable or dry clean only?
Dry clean only
How do Trunk shetlands compare to A&S, Jamiesons, Howlin etc?
Make wise they’re all quite similar – the only difference with the Trunk ones is that they are seamless, no side seam. Which is a bit more comfortable.
In terms of the wool, these are softer than A&S and the Jamiesons I’ve tried. Similar to Howlin.
Most important will probably be the cut and colours though, and I like Keita’s selection at Trunk, the cream and the dark green in particular. Neat, high collar.
Is your cream color on Trunk same as ecru that’s currently available?
Yes
I’ve got 3 pairs of Stoffa trousers, with a 4th on its way, and I’ve also got 2 pairs of Incotex. I think its good to directly compare them, because Incotex would be the alternative for most people – but in my opinion Stoffa are better in almost every category.
– Firstly, on fit – because they are MTM rather than RTW, and Agyesh is also someone that puts a lot of attention into getting the fit right.
– Secondly, on style – because I don’t personally like low-rise, skinny fit style chinos. Having become accustomed to slightly higher waisted trousers from my bespoke suits, the Incotex chinos just don’t feel as comfortable or look as flattering anymore.
– Thirdly, on value – because $275 (charged in dollars even in the UK) is less than £245, which is what Trunk are currently charging for Incotex. I’m not sure if it would be possible to achieve this level of make with a custom fabric in Italy for any less (I certainly haven’t seen it, even in RTW).
– Fourthly, on fabric – because the cotton basket weave mentioned is as close as possible to the perfect four-season chino material. It is incredibly heavy (520grams/18oz), but a very open weave. In winter, it feels comfortingly substantial – but I’ve also found it sufficiently breathable to be bearable in 25-30C heat.
– Finally, I know this shouldn’t matter, but I like Agyesh. He always delivers exactly what he says he will, and I find his style advice helpful in other areas too. Its a much more enjoyable experience dealing with him directly than buying Incotex from a salesman at the Slowear Store.
The only area I prefer Incotex, is in ease of care. The Incotex can just go in the washing machine on a delicate wash then hang dry. On the other hand, the basket weave can lose its crease and attract dirt pretty easily, needing dry-cleaning or pressing every 5-10 wears – which is a little impractical when you’re just starting out. For this reason alone, I’d still recommend Incotex as a good travel option, but recommend Stoffa for absolutely everything else.
i owned some of the incotex chino, and i agree they are too slim and low wise (even they said it is medium rise)
I hope Stoffa can visit Hong Kong in the furture, there is too less option for chino/trouser in Hong Kong,
For a side track:
It is not worth to have trouser bespoke in Hong Kong from the local tailor, i tried one of the tailor shop that mentioned by Simon’s Post previously (i dont want disclose the name); The finishing of the trouser is good, but the style is really bad, i think the main reason is not about the tailor’s skill, but the one who take the measurement (usually the front store sale)
I was about to post when I read H’s comments – my thoughts exactly. I also have three pairs of Stoffa trousers, with a fourth on the way, including two in this fabric (taupe, like Simon’s, and green). I also have a suede asymmetric jacket, which it simply beautiful. I tried the flight jacket, but found that the pockets emphasised the waist area in a way that didn’t suit me.
I have Incotex chinos, which are fine, but overpriced. I also have some Trunk own brand, which are cheaper and are a better fir on me.
I have to second H’s comments about Agyesh. His commitment to quality of product and service is second to none, in my experience, (although I’d also say that there one or two others who I also rate highly in this regard, like W&S) and it’s always an absolute pleasure to deal with him.
Have always been curious…are the side adjusters better placed entirely on the waistband or on the waistband trouser seam?
It’s not necessarily better or worse, just different…
– Having them on the seam allows the trousers to sit a little higher on the body, yet be tight at the same natural point on your body
– But, that does assume the tailor cuts them to be their tightest at that point too. Not an easy thing to adjust with MTM
– And, a buckle on the seam doesn’t always function that well. Usually it’s fine, but it depends on the fabric, the buckle and the construction of the trouser
if the flight jacket isn’t your style… i don’t suppose you’d consider selling it to someone who absolutely adores it (but can’t quite justify the expense of one MTO)?!
Sorry, no… I do still enjoy wearing it, even if it wasn’t as perfect as I’d hoped
Hi Simon,
Thanks for all your recent posts, this is a great site. My question relates to chinos generally and some of the comments above: why is it so hard to find a well cut (by which I mean a decent rise, and reasonably tailored leg) chino that is ALSO machine washable?? Quite a few of us have children and since I don’t like denim, I wear chinos around the house/on weekends.
I hear Luca Faloni are introducing chinos later this year – I have medium size hopes about this. I also recently purchased the Noah style from Zanella, for me they are a good half way point as they are a very generous rise with a decent cut.
Thanks Jon.
Unfortunately, it’s just because you’re in the minority as far as the market is concerned. It’s probably moving towards higher waists and fuller legs, but it might still take a while to get there.
The brands that tend to do them are those that are more centred around tailoring, and they tend to use more finishing inside the trousers that don’t cope well with machine washing.
So they can’t be machine washed because of the finishing? I thought the cloth is the reason. I think S.E.H Kelly make lined cotton trousers that they advise can be hand or machine washed.
And do you have turn ups also on your Incotex chinos, even without a crease?
Last question: how wide are the hems on these really impressive Stoffe trousers?
I haven’t had turn-ups on my Incotex historically, but I might do today, even without a crease.
The hem is 19cm
Thanks Simon, didn’t think about the inside finishing, that makes sense. Here’s hoping the market shifts sooner vs later, as I think most men would benefit from a higher rise that retains a slimmer leg
Jon,
Take a look at Lost Monarch – run by a style forum guy. His main product is that sort of chino. I’m waiting on delivery – hope they live up to promise
Jon, could I provide the almost obligatory Drake’s recommendation here? I picked up a paid of their “Buff” cotton trousers last summer and have pretty much lived in them since (in a house with a 6-18 month old).
Machine washable (30°C, inside out, line dry) with no noticeable shrinkage, soft but decent weight fabric, Drake’s typical medium rise and an ever so slightly wider leg (but I wouldn’t say full).
Might not be for you, but I’ve come to love them.
Hi Jon I have a pair of the Armoury sports chinos. They’re machine washable with a high rise and they have a slim but not skinny leg. Might be up your alley.
Thanks Shem – I’d forgotten about the Armoury range.
Jon, breakdown of those here.
Hi all, thank you so much for your recommendations! really helpful and appreciated. I had a couple pair of chinos from Drakes that didn’t hold up too well in the machine, but those were a 97% cotton 3% cashmere blend and perhaps therein lay the problem. I love Drakes and am in no way disparaging their quality, it’s just that I don’t think they were right for my use. I have come to realise the need for a handful of washable trousers each season to work in tandem with my “main” wardrobe
Hi Jon, have a look at chino specialist Unis NY too if you’re still searching.. They’ve been making chinos for over ten years now, first in the US and now in Portugal, and their Gio is a mid-to-high rise with slim legs made in a thick 100% cotton twill, just in richer workwear shades vs the pale washed look of Incotex.
Wins
Hi Simon,
Want to have a sense as to how the key measurements of these trousers compare to your more formal ones. What is the rise, thigh, knee and hem vs. say your suit trousers? On the pictures they don’t look so different frankly.
Thanks,
I haven’t measured the rise and thigh (they would be pretty similar to the formal ones – more about fit than style) but the knee and hem are 22cm and 19cm, where the formal trousers are usually more like 23 and 20. Not a huge difference, but it does make a difference
Simon,
I currently own six pairs of Stoffa trousers (two linen, two cotton, one cotton basket weave and a pair of flannels. The quality and value for MTM, in my experience, is second to none. Additionally, Agyesh’s measuring tape was dead on from the first pair, resulting in a superb fit.
How ironic. I am wearing Stoffa trousers today and I just happen to log on to your site and read your review. I tend to agree with you — Stoffa trousers are really well done for the price and quality.
Hi Simon,
I’ve red couple times you mentioning that attempts to get casual pants from tailors always end up in too dressy pants anyway.
Isn’t the reason the pattern cut? By inspecting jeans/chinos you can spot that the leg is always cut with a little bit bow around the knee. Also seams usually are double-folded like for jeans.
Tailors usually (and the pants in picture by Stoffa) seems to be cut with straight leg like a proper trousers and that’s why they still seems to be a little bit on dressier side rather than being casual.
Thanks,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,
Good point on the seams, that’s definitely true. I’m not sure about the bow around the knee though – I think that largely comes through wear? Certainly when I press my Incotex, for example, the leg seems straight.
I did not mean frontal bowing of the knee due to wear, but rather lateral bow across all leg length. Like in the following image –
?v=1550560847
At least I noticed this on some of my MTM jeans and chinos from mass retailers.
And by no means this is a statement, just curious look at garments.
Thanks Thomas, I didn’t realise that’s what you meant. I don’t think I see this either, but I’ll watch out for it more now
Dear Simon,
Interestingly I bought my first pair of Stoffa cotton trousers about 3-4 years ago when the brand was still rather new (to most people anyway) and back then there was no wear, wash, alter routine. After having dry cleaned my first pair (the peached cotton) I had lost about an inch on the length. I adressed this with Agyesh at the time and we made adjustments. Given the man he is I think he established this routine as a next level of customer service, to make sure the length is correct.
Thanks Nicolas, a nice illustration of someone trying to consistently improve what they do
I was gonna say. I got my first Stòffa trousers in 2015, and this routine wasn’t mentioned.
I guess ideally dry cleaning should cause shrinkage but I’m glad (and not at all surprised) to read about this change. The ongoing relationship is the biggest takeaway for me. Great clothing is a very nice added bonus.
Ps. Also eyeing that shirt jacket in silk/wool or possibly linen.
Is it broadly true then that if unlined, cotton trousers can be machine washed?
If so, I wonder why more makers don’t leave cotton trousers unlined. The advantages of being able to machine wash would seem to outweigh any advantage arising from the lining.
No, the lining doesn’t help, but it also depends on the cloth and the make
1. What 5 top versatile shoes do you recommend and use the most for fall/winter Simon? This includes loafers and chukkas.
2. Do you see this shoe by JLobb being very useful? And for what scenarios? John Lobb Prestige Philip II Loafer Parisian Brown Suede.
3. What soles are best in the rain? Would they be rubber soles, or crepe? Crepe and dainite soles seems to look apparently more casual, I think.
4. And what 5 shoes for summer?
I’ve already read your personal bespoke shoes piece. Thanks for your work~
Hi. These are great questions, but could you perhaps ask them on a more relevant post? For example, one about boots, or about clothing for the rain? There are a few.
Thank you
What alternatives to incotex, for a casual chino, would you suggest as they get more expensive?
Without doubt, Officine Generale Fisherman chino in English twill.
Great mid rise cut, horn buttons, button flies and fabulous cloth that ages and washes really well.
Vastly superior to Incotex. They retail at about £135 and are available from Mr.Porter.
A step up in casualness, but I found RRL’s Officer Chino to be decent as well. Lower rise and relatively slim, but not overly so on either. Not sure how they compare to Officine in terms of quality, but RRL is pretty reliable in that regard, RRP is around £170 I believe.
Could you wear these with your Doek’s? If not are they really a replacement for Chinos?
Good point. Yes I think so, but it would be pushing it. They’d be more suited to Common Projects.
Then again, I don’t really wear my Doeks or canvas trainers like that with Incotex either. Only with jeans or rougher, more casual workwear chinos – like the Armoury Army chino
Nice strides for sure but I think the real win here is that opening line ! Well done.
Simon,
I’ve been waiting on this post since you hinted at it a few months back. I tried Stoffa for two separate pieces and unfortunately, did not have the same results that you describe here.
My first experience was with a pair of linen trousers and while I would say that they looked the part, it took multiple returns and some alteration in order to make them comfortable when sitting. I atributed this to where some of the excess was taken up from the original block and maybe my own choices on rise. It was because of Agyesh’s willingness to correct the fit that I decided to try some of their knitwear.
Despite assurances that there would not be any significant shrinkage, I experienced quite the opposite. The shame is that it became my favorite knit shirt immediately, but after the first wash (cold water, garment bag, laid flat to dry) it became too short in both the body and sleeves to wear anywhere outside of my own home.
-M
Thanks Michael. What did Agyesh say on the knitwear?
To be quite honest Simon I never addressed the issue with Agyesh. I took delivery a day prior to leaving on a significantly long trip, so the initial washing took place several weeks after when I returned home.
Remembering the amount of visits I made into New York for the trousers, and my disappointment with the shirt made me a bit apathetic to the whole ordeal.
-M
Ok, good to know.
I think Agyesh would probably appreciate the feedback to be honest, and see it is useful rather than criticism. Up to you though obviously
Interestingly, I’ve seen multiple posts on styleforum addressing significant shrinkage also, but I’m not sure what kind of response people have been getting.
Now that they also offer the knitwear in MTO and MTM, I’m sure I’ll give it a try at some point. I’d expect them to rectify any faults along the way.
Great post Simon. I find to get the right look the chinos have to be sort of chalky.
Every trouser I’ve seen from Stoffa has a single reverse pleat, and seeing as yours are flat-front, I wonder if you know whether they would also make double forward pleats upon request?
Yes, chalky is a nice way to put it. A matte, not shiny texture.
I don’t know on the double pleats, but I’m not sure it would really be in keeping with the casual material?
They’re certainly not the traditional choice for chinos, but once I went pleated I couldn’t go back (and I prefer the afore-mentioned style).
Cheers
Charles, they offer double pleats too, I have both single and double from them, but they only offer reverse.
Although points come across fairly strong, I do find Jason’s recommendations useful. Is this the same commenter as David…
I don’t think you intended to but you shade Luxire for being made in India vs. Stoffa beng in Italy – an opposite position to the one you take re. 100 Hands. The issue is quality: Stoffa are superior. The geography, as you have formerly argued has little to do with it.
On cotton trousers/chinos: it’s a mistake to go chasing for a look wherein it’s essence lies in the fact that it is mass produced not bespoke. It is the very fact that it is bespoke that renders it odd- looking. The cut, the garment wash process, the cloth are easy to mass produce but hard to replicate in single issue. I would also argue against dry cleaning – it seems an anathema to the true spirit of the garment. Trying to reach for unnecessary structure in bespoke finish and fit in what is a casual garment formulates a dichotomy the outcome of which is an overly-mannered garment at odds with it’s intention or theme (‘the old man look’ as you state). Though stylish the side adjusters hint at this, chinos, at least, are always worn with a belt. A further issue is trying to dress down whilst retaining ‘presentability’ and at what level of formality are we trying to achieve said presentability. Do cotton trousers fit the model or should they be substituted by light-weight wool? I think cotton trousers/chinos serve a purpose at the casual end of a wardrobe and should be expressed as such. That is to say over-investment in construction or substitution for a superior wool trouser (when required) should be avoided. However when summer days allow, the cotton trouser has a place and should be worn with relaxed, casual elan sans formality.
Thanks, very well expressed.
On India, by the way, I deliberately only said it will matter to some people
The “intention” or rather the purpose of a pair of trousers is purely of a personal nature. Adhering to some sort of rule-based conventional wisdom to such a granular degree as to mandate theme and intention borders on the absurd. The very purpose of a bespoken garment is to allow the wearer to express whatever outcome desired by the commisioner. There is no such thing as over-investment in construction when it comes to clothing design or purpose; bespoken of otherwise; chinos or tuxedo. And to conflate cotton trousers with chinos is to make a critical sartorial error. A nice pair of fine well-constructed (read: “over construction”) non-washable tailored cotton trousers serves a particular purpose during the summer. It may be worn with the most formal of jackets, as well as shoes and ties and provides an inimitable comfortable substitute for wool on days that may take the wearer from work to a late night dinner and theatre with colleagues and friends.
You’ve mentioned in the past that you tend to go for a more tapered cut with cotton trousers because cotton doesn’t drape as well as wool. How much do you take off without risking the ugly skinny look that tends to be so on-trend these days?
I’ve recently gone bespoke for sports jackets but I’m sticking to MTM for trousers. My dress trousers tend to be about 12.5 cm at the thigh, 8.75 cm at the knee, and 7.5 cm at the cuff. Perhaps leave the thigh the same and reduce by 0.5 cm at the cuff and at the knee? Thanks!
Do you mean inches?
Dear Simon,
Great post and great discussion.
Do you dry clean all your trousers? Even chinos? The topic has sprung to my mind reading the comments. Being the father of two very active toddlers, I only wear denim on weekends as the look of my RTW chinos after couple cycles in the washing machine is all but appealing. Any recommendations for casual but good looking trousers that can be machine washed?
No, I clean my chinos like Incotex in the washing machine. They just need a decent iron after – do you do that with yours?
To Jackson. A re-reading of Simon’s post should clear up some of the misconceptions. The issue at heart is the replication of a garment wash look combined with excellent fit. There is of course such a thing as ‘over investment’ particularly when the garment does not turn out as expected (not in this case). ROCE calculations, in this vein, are indeed a mainstay of business. Simon has been honest enough to record some of these adventures – indeed he is the only journalist in this area who does. As for conflation of cotton trousers and chinos, there is no sartorial error – merely a reflection of the article’s thematic content…
‘The result is a trouser that I think feels much more like RTW chinos – but of course, made to your fit and specs’
…hence my comment. There is no conventional wisdom nor granular detail: the discussion is one of replicating mass-produced techniques within bespoke and, within that design, what does and does not support a successful outcome (the avoidance of an overly-mannered look)…
‘Tailored cotton trousers are, in my experience, an absolute bastard to get right….But they always felt like old man’s trousers, and I couldn’t figure out why.’
As for advice on wear: theatres are now pretty undemanding as to dress code. NY and London theatres and restaurants host many tourists who have spent the day wandering the sites who then segue into evening entertainment. Opera and ballet performances remain slightly more demanding of their audiences and evening dress is often still observed. Cotton trousers are less visible in these more formal settings. Moreover cotton does not, cannot, provide a ‘substitute’ for wool – wool needs no summer substitute as fresco weaves attest – though cotton may of course provide an alternative.
Hey Simon, hope you dont mind me asking on here. If someone were to buy a single pair of chinos what color what you recommend most?
Probably beige. Navy is very useful too, but mostly without a jacket
Hi simon
I made a pair of bespoke trousers and notice the front of my trousers seem to have a very messy front with ripples along the pleats thst are unsightly when viewed from the side. Unfortunately my tailor doesn’t seem to recognise the issue. Are you aware what the issue may be so I can better communicate the solution, if any? The line seems to be much sharper when I pull up on where the pleat starts
Many thanks Simon. A little upset that I have spent quite abit on bespoke for such an outcome..
Hi Shem. From the sounds of it, this might be the trousers being too tight across the seat and the top of the thigh.
However, it is hard to tell remotely, even pictures would not make it simple.
Do be aware as well that pleats often don’t hang straight and cleanly on some body shapes. It rarely works for me, for example. It’s also easier with high-waisted trousers.
Hey Simon I’ve been obsessed with pleats for all my trousers (mtm from a local tailor) but have been going back to high rise flat front for my cotton ones this year as I feel I can accessorise them with a belt and they have a more casual air about them. I have a khaki and army green one but am looking to add another color to the collection. Apart from the usual navy and dark brown as a third, are there any other colours that may be worth considering that compliments what I already have? No stone/white though as I find those too flashy. Thanks!
I think you have most of the trouser colours covered there, as far as casual cottons ones are concerned. I’d only suggest other shades then – eg a grey/brown colour, or a warm grey, that Stoffa has, for instance
Simon, just curious as to why did you decide for side adjusters instead of belt loops? If, as you said, these are a replacement to your Incotex chinos, I would have thought that belt loops are more in keeping with the casual nature of chinos? Thanks as always!
Yes you’re right, I just rarely wear belts. I like the clean look of side adjustors. It is slightly smarter, but not a lot. Even with my Incotex, they had belt loops but I rarely wore one.
Hi Simon, that Trunk Berwick Shetland you’re wearing, how does it compare to A&S’s equivalent, which you have in light brown? From looking at you wearing them, it seems A&S’s might be abit more fitted around the sides? The reason I ask is that Trunk’s goes for 160GBP, while A&S’s 215GBP, so I am deciding if the extra 55GBP is worth it. Many thanks.
The fits are around the same now. Quality the same too, but A&S has a bigger range
Hi Simon is your chino here more grey or taupe?
On that note, I don’t see many men wearing grey cotton trousers. If one was to consider a pair, would the same rules to color for woolen apply? ie. mid grey being most versatile etc
Taupe. And no, grey cottons are hard – often don’t look as good as more casual colours like tans or greens that wools do. But yes, I would go mid-grey
Hi Simon,
I had the sure of meeting one of the members of the Stoffa team in London today and I commissioned my first pair of trousers to be made. As I don’ t have a dark blue trouser currently in my wardrobe, I decided to go for the dark indigo in basket weave cotton. I was thinking about the taupe as well but I wasn’t sure whether it would match with many shirts or knitwear. In contrast, your recent article about a navy pair trousers being the least versatile when it comes to matching with other colour jackets has made me think. What are your thoughts?
I think they will prove very useful as a whole Rupesh, but yes not so great with jackets
Hi Simon- did you go with a medium or large in the Trunk Shetland? Measurements online look as though they run a touch small. Thanks.
Medium
Simon, regarding the shetland sweater from Trunk you’ve got on, can you confirm that the color is in fact cream, or does Trunk stock it as “ecru”? Appreciate the clarification as I don’t see a cream but do see an ecru.
Bringing it back to Stoffa, I would love to hear your thoughts of how that Trunk shetland sweater compares to Stoffa’s own ivory crewneck sweater, and perhaps Anderson & Sheppard’s shetland and cashmere offerings in the same hue.
Many thanks!
Yes, it’s ecru.
I haven’t tried Stoffa’s knitwear yet (I will later this week), but it’s pretty similar to A&S shetlands. Cashmere different obviously – similar to both, but the cashmere feel/warmth
Hi Simon, absolutely agree how most tailors that do bespoke/mtm trousers seem to only carry cotton fabrics which are too smooth/often with a sheen. That said, I notice the sports chinos carried by the armoury (which can be washed) are actually from solbiati but have the hand feel of a rtw chino. However, I can’t seem to find anything from fabric books that even come close to this. Would you have any recommendations on specific fabric books that are closest to rtw ones in the robustness/coursesness of the cotton?
No, sorry. The only ones I’ve ever had that came close were the Dalcuore ones in Drapers cotton linked to in the post.
Are the Armoury ones garment washed? That may be why they feel like a RTW chino more
Hi Simon,
I have Stoffa trousers in high twist and flannel. Excellent fit and quality. The only thing that bothers me is that the fabric selection is limited. Stoffa’s flannel for example is beautiful but weights only 11 ounces and I really want a pair of heavier flannels (14-16oz). Because of this I am considering Saman Amel. How do you compare Stoffa and Sman Amel in style and finish?
The finish and quality is very similar. I had some issues with Saman trousers (see review here) but I think they’ve changed some things since.
Hi simon if one almost always wears brown shoes in calf or suede, without any jacket and in the usual white/blue/stripe sbirts, how useful is a pair of dark brown chinos? Would the outfit look too brown?
There is certainly that risk, yes. I would only do it occasionally, with brown calf leather shoes. Sometimes casual black shoes, like loafers.
You’re better off looking at dark green, beige, cream, navy first.
I’ve been looking at this article again and really considering pulling the trigger on some Stoffa trousers. The colour and fit are just so good.
However, I keep reading your sentence “I knew from long experience where the trousers should sit on my hips”. I wish I did! If trousers are anywhere other than high and tight around my natural waist I seem to spend all day hoiking them up. I am a fairly slim person (although not quite as slim as I used to be) and I like a medium-high rise, say, just above the hips but it never feels comfortable or stable. Do you have any sort of rule of thumb, or general advice? Thanks!
Hi Evatt,
I do know what that can be like. It’s hard to advise on really, because it’s so dependent on your physique and wear exactly you want them to sit. But do bear in mind that you can have the Stoffa ones higher if you want. And Agyesh and the team are good at giving advice on that too
Good to know and many thanks for taking the time to reply.
Hi Simon,
May I ask what sizes you take in the Trunk Berwick and A&S Shetland sweaters?
Medium in the Berwick, small in the A&S
Hi Simon,
Did you end up buying Stoffa’s shirt jacket? Grateful if you could help me with the below:
1. What do you think of the style?
2. Would you have one made in their natural undyed cream/brown houndstooth (https://www.instagram.com/p/CIyJSKXHMuG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link)
3. Would you have one made in their peached cotton twill or their woollen flannel?
Thanks.
I didn’t, no, sorry. I would buy the houndstooth, probably, but not the peached cotton, maybe flannel
Thank you. If in flannel (say a cream or dark brown flannel), would you wear it with flannel trousers on a different color?
Probably not, no. Though it depends a little on the particular cloth – flannels can vary a bit
You mentioned in the above comment that it would be “pushing it” to wear Doek’s with these trousers, could you explain this point? How would the structure of those shoes not be suited for these trousers? If not, what trousers would be better suited for the Doek trainers?
I’m referring to my derby Doeks, and they would probably be a little too casual for these trousers. Something smarter and in leather, like the Common Projects, would be better
How about the Doek oxford?
That would work better, yes. Still, I think these trousers are nicest with loafers
Do you have any thoughts on the Edward Green Harrow? It seems like a nice unlined shoe that may go well with this?
It would be a little smart in leather. But in suede it would be nice
Hi Simon, could you say a few things on waistband construction? How much does the interlining affect the end result? Is it always fused? What’s the variation among makers when it comes to the materials they use and which materials do the best makers use? I find many of my trousers (mostly Asian-made mtm) have a stiff interlining that feels like a flimsy plastic sheet. Have you experienced the same on lower-end trousers such as your Luxire ones? Speaking of which, I initially wanted to post this question under your Luxire review but it’s nowhere to be found. Did they request that you take it down?
Hi David,
To be honest it’s not an area I know a lot about, but I can look into more. In general though, yes, cheaper trousers are more likely to have fused and stiffer linings.
Though not necessarily, in that some will use hardly anything and be happy with a very soft waistband, not that smart. And smarter tailored trousers sometimes use a stiffer lining because they want an especially clean look.
Hi Simon, I think that would make for a useful article indeed.
Hi Simon
I’m about to order the current season chocolate cotton trousers from Stoffa. Would these pair well with a Friday polo or some beige/fawn knitwear? I’m looking for a smarter alternative at the weekends to vintage denim and occasionally to wear to work with an Oxford button down shirt.
Thanks
Hywel
Sounds good Hywel, and yes they would be great with both
Hello Simon, in which seasons would you say the basketweave is most appropriate? Is it more or less a four season cloth?
Thanks for any thoughts
To the extent any cloth can be four season, yes it is.
Nice questions John.
1. Yes, I now have three pairs of Stoffa, and no longer where Incotex. However, as covered in our recent series on chinos, these are still fairly smart trousers and I wouldn’t say they are a straight replacement for chinos like Incotex.
2. I have tried them, in the same basketweave material. They are washable, and the washing has been fine. My only issue was a small one with the finish on the waistband with the beltless style.
3. He is in New York more in fact than in Europe. And there is a permanent physical presence there now.
4. Hard to say on value, it’s borderline. But no, I haven’t discovered anyone else that offers something similar.
5. Yes, those other chinos are rather different in style. Less tailored, less smart, particularly ones from brands like The Real McCoy’s or Blackhorse Lane. Stoffa trousers aren’t really traditional chinos that people know, that you could wear with a T-shirt and trainers etc. Which is why they’re not styled like that by Stoffa themselves.
6. I can’t really, no, as I haven’t tried any in that price range. As with many things, PS doesn’t look at that segment of the market – unfortunately we can’t cover everything given we’re still so small.
Thanks a lot for your responses
In summer I generally roll up chinos when I wear loafers without socks just to give it a casual look.
What is your view on rolled up chinos?
Not that much of a fan. Looks a bit too tight easily. Usually I just fold once
which chinos/cotton trousers are best for wearing with a shirt and tie? These? Armoury?
Personally I don’t wear any chinos with a shirt and tie – I would go for tailored cotton trousers in that case.
Hi Simon
I‘ m about to preorder the taupe basketweave for delivery in the Spring. I’ve just tried on my chocolate cotton trousers I purchased at the end of last summer from Stoffa and I love the quality of construction and fit.
Would the taupe basketweave work in combination with the PS Oxford yellow shirt?
Thanks
Hywel
I don’t think so, personally. I think they would be too similar in tone. I’d prefer something darker or just white with the taupe
Thanks Simon – that’s really useful to know. I’ve got an Anglo Italian navy Oxford and a Simone Abbarchi blue Oxford. I’ve asked him to make a shirt in the PS blue/white stripe Oxford too. That should give me a range of options to go with the taupe trousers. Wearing the brown cotton Stoffa trousers makes me happy. The fit and construction is fantastic and the shade of brown is exactly what I was hoping for.
Simon! Is pre washed and garment washed the same thing?
My tailor is offering me a made to measure cotton trouser which he is saying has been pre washed and therefore he tells me it is the same as chinos being offered by any other brand but with higher quality?
I doubt it. Garment washed is post washed – washed after it’s made. But check with him. He might mean that.
Of course, that’s doesn’t mean they’re necessarily just like chinos. Look at our bespoke chinos article – there’s a lot to them
Thank you Simon.
Could you advice on one last thing Simon. As Summer has started in India and after seeing your articles on Summer dressing I have started to try and dress more comfortably as well as elegantly. So today I am wearing a ‘White linen popover shirt, with rtw olive chinos and navy espadrilles’ and while I was in a coffee shop working I suddenly stumbled across an article on ‘reddit’ in which certain users commented on the exact look of shirt, trousers and some tom’s espadrilles to be trying a bit too hard. Suddenly I have started doubting my outfit even though I was pretty confident at first, part of the reason being I would be the only person wearing espadrilles in sea of trainers and maybe also the fear of standing out in the crowd where everybody would be most probably in t shirts and jeans.
1) What is your opinion on this outfit?
2) Can trying to dress a bit better then most of the people around would give a person the tag of trying too hard?
It sounds great Ayush, and if you’re well dressed you’ll always be different to many around you.
Think about whether YOU like it, and ignore Reddit threads
You mentioned that the process involves washing them a couple of times before returning to finalize the hem length. Does this mean then, that the trousers are machine washable?
No, these ones are not. Stoffa do now do a machine washable option though
Hi Simon, I have the same model in taupe and found the color to be less versatile than what I had hoped for. Cream looks very nice (shamelessly copying your outfit here…) as does charcoal in my opinion, but neither leighter greys nor navy (oddly) have really worked for me (thinking of knitwear, not tailored jackets.) Also, I find the shrt color needs to be fairly muted. Bright “corporate” light blues create a lot of contrast. Any ideas or recommendations would be much appreciated .Best, Jan
Hey Jan,
You mean recommendations of things to go with the taupe? I’d start with white shirt – perhaps a more casual material like an oxford or a pique polo material. Then I’d try charcoal or navy over the top, though not sure if you’ve already tried navy with a white collar under. Take a look at the Stoffa lookbooks as well – that gives a clue to the kind of palette they’re working in. More brown, taupe and olive than navy and grey.
Hi Simon, which do you tend to wear more between Stoffa and Rubato’s chino? Also, do you think Stoffa’s are smarter than Rubato’s?
Many thanks,
Jack
Definitely Rubato, and yes I think the Stoffa ones are
Hi Simon, I am considering commissioning a pair of tailored cotton trousers which could possibly work with a casual tailored jacket. I have narrowed it down into two options, bespoke trousers and Stoffa’s MTM. For the former, I initially considered Drapers heavy cotton cloth you used for the Dalcuore, but it seems they no longer produce it. So, I have found a possible alternative from Caccioppoli and to me, it doesn’t look shiny, but I just wanted to ask what you think as well. I have attached a photo of the cloth for your reference. And for the latter, I am unsure whether they could go well with sports jackets like your Dalcuore’s.
Many thanks,
Jack
That cloth looks nice Jack, a good colour and doesn’t look too shiny. But, I very rarely wear cotton trousers with tailored jackets so I’m probably not the best person to advise on combinations there.
Great, thanks for sharing your opinion.
Hi Simon, could I ask what the leg opening measurements are for the trousers?
Many thanks,
Jack
Around 9 inches Jack
Aren’t they relatively wider than your other trousers’ leg openings measurement? They don’t look that wide to me. Do you also notice that, or am I seeing these incorrectly?
When these were commissioned, they probably were a touch wider, yes. But these days most trousers I have are around 8 inches / 20 cm.
They might not look that wide being a relatively thick material
I see. Thanks, Simon.
Thanks for the advice. Corduroy and moleskin in heavy fabrics work if cut more like a tailored trouser due to the weight of the cloth. But glad I found this, ordering some trousers and I didn’t think about this.
Hi Simon, would you wear the Stoffa chinos with Doek Court shoes or Common Project sneakers?
Many thanks,
Jack
Yes I would, either
Simon, yesterday I had an appointment at stoffa NYC with Nick. The consultation was professional and very pleasant. Nick answered all my questions and even anticipated my needs with fit and style. One on one at 11:00am before my schedule got much busier. Ordered tge basket weave cotton in exactly your trouser specifications in both taupe and lighter olive. Cost was $850 USD for both. Looking forward to first fitting. Thank you for the great guidance!
Best
Robert
Pleasure Robert, thanks for letting me know
Hi Simon, do you wear the Stoffa chinos during the UK spring/summer? If so, would you wear them with a linen overshirt?
Many thanks,
Jack
I do yes, and yes I would
1)When you say that cotton trousers could have a tendency to look a bit oldish than are you referring to it when the same is paired with a jacket or are you not a fan of tailored mtm cotton trousers which are generally offered by most of the shops even when worn on its own?
2)Do you think chinos like armoury workwear or from fast fashion stores like gap can work as business casual where most people would be wearing tailored cotton trousers and a shirt?
1) Much more with a jacket, but there’s a slightly risk on its own as well – depends a lot on what else it’s worn with
2) Yes, combined well those chinos can work
Hi Simon, I am considering commissioning Stoffa’s basketweave chinos in black as I’ve enjoyed wearing them in taupe.
I’ve seen that you recently tend to wear more black trousers (jeans, linen and corduroy trousers), which look nice, so I just wanted to ask for your thoughts on whether the black in-basket weave cotton would be a good choice for black trousers.
Many thanks,
Jack
I’m not sure Jack to be honest – I love black jeans, but they are faded and it’s really a different colour. I have black cords but don’t wear them so much.
I’d say it’s likely to be a more unusual piece from Stoffa, rather than something you wear frequently. A lot of their colours would go well with them though