Jean-Manuel Moreau made-to-measure suit: Review
Let’s move the conclusion up to the top of this review, just to get it out of the way.
This is a great made-to-measure suit. It’s fitted well, styled well and made well, and for me illustrates the pinnacle of what made-to-measure should be.
For most readers, it is the top of what they should be aiming for - in terms of craft and value for money. There will always be small reasons for choosing bespoke (design, craft, heritage) but for the majority, this is it.
The MTM service Jean-Manuel Moreau offers, made by Orazio Luciano in Naples, sits at the top of the list we’ve covered on Permanent Style, alongside brands like Saman Amel.
Which shall we look at first? Fit, style, make?
Perhaps fit, given it’s often the first thing people focus on.
The jacket of this suit fits very cleanly, despite the little help offered by linen. It sits well across the shoulders, chest and upper back, and runs smoothly down into the upper arm.
There is, perhaps, the tiniest excess on the right of the chest and on the left of the back: but as often happens, the photos exaggerate it.
More important, and obvious, is the close fit of the collar on the back of the neck; and the right/left balance, which aids the clean appearance through the waist and hips.
I haven’t included pictures of the fit of the trousers, just because there’s so much to look at already. But you can see something of them in my two recent posts on summer smart/casual.
They are cut a little higher than normal, just because I'm always interested in how different tailors try to fit that rise on my body - and it’s so nice and flattering. So far, these are among the best in that regard - perhaps on a short list with Camps de Luca, Whitcomb, Cifonelli and Ambrosi.
They are flat-fronted, and relatively slim, with a 19cm opening and a 5cm cuff. Now, several readers have asked about these proportions recently, after the trousers were featured on those style posts. Please, always bear in mind that such things should be in proportion to your body and shoe size as well.
The trousers are a touch too short, but no more than a centimetre. I do like trousers like this to just kiss the top of the shoe, and with a little extra, they would. Perhaps it’s nothing more than looking at the length previously when the linen was unwrinkled.
(As in all reviews, I have photographed this suit after several hours’ wear, rather than in its perfect, pressed look straight from the tailor. It’s much more realistic.)
In terms of make, Jean-Manuel Moreau has a similar level of finishing to other good Neapolitans. Which is to say, not as fine as anything in France, England or North Italy - but still with a lot of work.
Any quick comparison of the buttonholes, or finishing around the lining inside, shows that it’s not on the same level as those other regions.
The lining running around the interior pockets is not exactly precise, and the linen is cut between it and the facing, rather than being the same piece.
But there is still a lot of handwork here. The jacket’s edges and seams are all top-stitched, as are the long seams down the sides of the trousers. In Naples, this is an extra level - more commonly seen when trouser workshops make under their own name, rather than for other tailors.
And more importantly, the lapel of the jacket is hand-padded - a key structural point that's usually only seen on bespoke, and only on made-to-measure we’ve covered from (top line) Saman Amel and Orazio. (The latter was initially wrong on the Orazio piece, and has been corrected.)
There are still small points of shaping and handwork - for example around the collar and armhole - that separate the best bespoke from all MTM. But they are some of the small points I mentioned at the start, that most readers will not need or notice.
They centre around how the upper half of the jacket sits on the neck, on the shoulders and under the arms, and therefore how that part of the jacket responds to the wearer moving (seen a little bit below). But it’s not even something all bespoke tailors execute well.
So we’ve done fit, and make. As regards style, I think this suit appeals for its simple, elegant curves. Almost for lack of character.
Compared to the Orazio cord jacket we covered, the JMM is larger almost everywhere - in the shoulder, the chest, the waist and the sleeve, as well as being longer in the body.
Yet it certainly does not feel or look big. It still has a flattering line through the waist and in the small of the back. And it’s small enough in the shoulder, and short enough in the body, to be a casual cut that would work with jeans or chinos (in a different material).
The gorge is fairly high, the lapel fairly wide. But neither look exaggerated (gorge height being one thing I'd like to change on the Saman Amel jacket).
The buttoning point is lower than the hunting-inspired English tailors, yet could still be a touch lower if desired. And the foreparts are certainly open and curved, but again don’t look extreme.
In some ways it reminds me of my Steven Hitchcock jackets, in that I noted that cut is a subtler version of A&S in almost every regard. This has a similar relationship to other Neapolitans.
There is a lot to recommend such a style, whether English or Neapolitan. Both are building blocks on which to found a personal style - rather than a strong style in themselves.
Finally, the experience.
I don’t think I have to say much about the service at Jean-Manuel Moreau. The comments on our introductory article were enough. They might be the most effusive ever on PS.
I’ll just briefly say that I was measured in Paris, had one fitting in Florence and one in London, and then picked up the final suit. Jean-Manuel and Nicholas were pleasant and efficient throughout.
The fit was also good at the first fitting (so perhaps more down to JMM’s model at Orazio, rather than his local workshop in Paris) and the only major thing we changed in terms of style was the lining.
This was initially a mid-brown, but that showed through too much on the back (linen being a little see through, and the lining only being in the top of the back). So we swapped it for the striped cream shown here.
For a conclusion, I'd refer you to the top of this piece. I'd just say that I'm very glad Jean-Manuel visits London (or will do, when it's possible). And on the basis of this, he is highly recommended.
For more on Jean-Manuel Moreau tailoring, the products and style, see our introductory article here.
Made-to-measure suits start at €2400, and jackets €1800. Made-to-measure shirts start at €240.
The cloth of the suit is Irish linen 10z, 201001 from Holland & Sherry. I’ll cover more about cream linen, its variants, uses and drawbacks, in a subsequent post.
Other items shown: Bespoke white-linen shirt from D’Avino, olive-green grenadine tie from Drake’s and bespoke oxfords from Masaru Okuyama.
Photography: Alex Natt @adnatt
Lovely suit!
What’s the creasing like on the 10oz linen?
It definitely creases, but more elegantly than the much lighter Italian linens
Simon,
Missing “not” in this sentence? “Yet it certainly does feel or look big”
It’s a great looking suit, but… I always feel so on edge in this sort of colour. After a couple of wears I’d probably have it looking like Jackson Pollock collage of coffee, red wine and grass stains. More power to you if you can make it work, though.
Yes. Thank you Sam, I’ll fix that.
I know what you mean about cream. I think on the one hand you need to embrace small spots of dirt or smudges. And on the other, have your stain removal game at a decent level. They don’t take any more care that good leather shoes really.
Stain Removal, what’s the safest way? I may have missed an article on that?
Worst case was a dab of Fairy liquid on a cloth, for eg. A white shirt, I’d use vanish which I’d try to avoid using if possible.
There’s this piece Lindsay – not sure if you saw that.
Out of interest did you search the site and not find anything?
Not at this point, admittedly but I’ll look up the article that you’re referring to.
Thanks
Lindsay
I see why that would be a concern, that being said, Alan See was wearing a Liverano cream linen on one of the recent instagram/youtube clips, that was heavily worn and Alan said it had been caught in the rain numerous times, and yet it looked amazing. It gave off quite an artistic vibe I thought. Just goes to show that well-made clothes, even if heavily worn and even stained will still look great.
I have increasigly been attracted to getting something along these lines, so it’s lovely to see.
I presume when you say ‘Yet it certainly does feel or look big’, that this was typo?
Not sure about the trouser lenght. I know you mentioned it could do with an extra centimetre, and that this is very much a matter of personal taste, but to me the side and back views, look markedly short.
This looks seriously good.
Along with style and quality, £ per wear is a key criteria for me and I think this is how these MTMs may reel me in.
Along with the rest of the world, I don’t wear tailoring as much as I used to and the quality improvement in MTM is becoming increasingly appealing.
Sorry to be a stickler but there’s a few typos in this article. Do you not spell check prior to posting? Its something I notice more and more in online media and it annoys me slightly.
Apologies. If it helps, they come because I revise and revise the text. I care a lot about the flow and the the terms used. That often means the odd typo slips in though
It’s not its
You should have wrote “there’re a few typos”, not “there’s a few typos”.
You should have written “written”, not “wrote”.
I must say that as much as I like Simon and his writing, not to mention his personality and truthfulness, the number of typos to be found in every other article is annoying, especially when we spend so much time emphasizing such things as finishing and neatness of work. I do think your articles would benefit from that little extra attention. The great content you provide us with week after week certainly deserves it.
I’ve always been fascinated how the shape of the wearer, rather than cut or fit, can make such a difference to the way something looks.
Assuming this jacket is made using the same block as those JMM himself is wearing in the previous post about his business, the visual difference is substantial.
Strong shoulders, a broad chest and back, compared to your sloping shoulders, rather slim chest and hollow back, makes for a very different outcome.
By the way, could you please confirm the cloth reference? I cant find it in the H&S book, although I imagine it is their South Pacific cream?
Thanks!
That is the right cloth reference, but I think the book has been updated since then, and the precise shade isn’t available any more. I will confirm with them though
Hi Simon,
You are correct, the book has been updated and the new reference is 2019114 colour Ivory Solid.
Thanks
Aha, thank you Rupesh
Funny as I was thinking the same.
I’m 6’1″, 44″ chest, 35″ waist, weigh about 86kgs, so I would expect to look more like JM wearing this.
Lovely suit. I would be interested to hear how this compares with Anglo Italian MTM, which I think you are intending to try and for, which I have personally been very pleased with. This suit is via a well known workshop / tailor, albeit at a higher price.
I am sure we all look forward to being able to wear tailoring again….
Looks great; if this was dark green, it would probably be my ideal summer suit. I doubt that a suit in a colour this light would survive more than two summers, unless you never eat or drink while wearing it, and you’re very careful about where you put your elbows and bum, which doesn’t sound very relaxing.
Looks great! Is this meant to be a replacement for your Kent, Haste & Lachter?
yes, exactly
Sorry Simon,
The shoes are from? I have not been able to read.
Congratulation for the Post, like always.
Greatings from Spain
Thanks Eneko. It’s mentioned at the end of the article, with a link to the previous coverage (Masaru Okuyama)
Hi Simon, could you wear the jacket on it’s own? If so, what trousers and shirt would you pair it with? If you have covered this in a previous article I’d be grateful if you could refer me to it.
Yes absolutely. In fact it’s a lot easier to wear that way. I’m just putting together a post showing that – it will be ready in a couple of weeks
Great, look forward to it.
The Man From Del Monte, he say YES!! Very good, Simon
This is timely because I’m currently thinking about ordering an Ivory linen.
How do you feel the H&S compares to the WBill? I’ve heard raves about the WBill linen offerings and have not tried either.
There’s no difference Peter. They both come from the same Irish mills. Just pick on the weight and colour
Beautiful suit; well-proportioned and flattering, except for the short trousers.
I make you right, I’m not feeling the trouser length.
Hi Simon,
Great article and I am glad on the renewed focus on MTM.
Couple of questions:
Wanted to know, at this price point, what would be the pros and cons of using JMM vs entry-level bespoke like Whitcomb and Shaftesbury Classic Bespoke option in terms of fit, quality, style and price to quality ratio? Both are effectively similarly priced.
Thanks
It’s a big question to answer, and of course a lot depends on personal preferences. Most importantly, Whitcomb and JMM are very different styles – one English, the other largely Neapolitan. For different uses and levels of formality.
But if all other things were equal, I would generally say bespoke and therefore Whitcomb. JMM is still made in Italy and Whitcomb in India, and the much lower labour costs mean it is a much cheaper piece for the work.
So for the same price(€2400) ….. would you recommend this MTM or a bespoke ?
In other words is this better than a €2400 bespoke?
P.S. very much welcome the increased writing around MTM . I’m sure it appeals to a wider audience.
See partial answer above, Robin. Do ask a follow-up if you want.
Thanks for your answer Simon. I guess, the next question would be if we then how does it compare to Neapolitan (or Italian) entry-level bespoke which are similarly priced like Solito or Vergallo (think all around €2,500 so pretty similar)? Interesting as I have done suits with both and would like to understand how do you think the fit/quality of work etc compares given same price point. Thanks
You’re right, that’s the interesting point, and the inflexion in the comparative pricing.
I think the summary would be that there are some things with bespoke that it’s not really possible to achieve with MTM, even on this level. These are largely around 3D shape created by the hand work – not just the canvassing. (That’s something I’ll cover in more detail in an upcoming post.)
But, you’ll generally get a better quality level overall with MTM at this level than with bespoke at the same price – because you’re basically trading the entry-level of one for the top end of the other. That comes through in accuracy of stitching, general longevity etc.
And, cheaper bespoke products tend to put in less of that 3D shaping, as do Neapolitan garments with less internal structure anyway. So that difference is lessened.
Overall, I’d say it’s about which of those two things you put greater weight on. But also, things like good fit and most importantly, style, aren’t necessarily related to either type of make, and are arguably more important than both of them. So focus on those things first.
Style and fit always come first.
As with the Cornacchia suit, I really appreciate that this is something that is in a price range that I would be willing to purchase. And I quite like the style – so I’ll definitely keep it in my mind if I decide to go ahead with another bespoke purchase.
You mentioned 2 fittings – were these basted/forward fittings, or just alterations on an otherwise completed suit? MTM with 2 fittings sounds an awful lot closer to bespoke than my previous MTM experience, which was the delivery of a completed suit after 1 measurement session.
One fitting was pretty much finished, the other completely finished. But changes were still made.
I wouldn’t say it had the same pattern development as bespoke, but it also didn’t need much (in my case)
That’s a lovely suit. Selecting a lighter weight linen is surely a great test of how good a tailor can be, especially regarding the jacket.
But the trousers, indeed too short. I think you’d get the right effect if you opted for a ½” (or less) military hem. I really hate the way trousers hang out at the back when they’re slightly short and also slightly full. I am a fan of the military hem for exactly this reason – few would even notice the slant but many would notice as clean a finish at the back as at the front! FWIW my own tailor also suggested this approach when I asked him to shorten sleeves of a sports jacket where the shortening ate too far into the (non-opening) line of buttons at the back (my arms are comically short). It made his job easier, and the clean look of the break just above the wrist to show a bit of shirt cuff remains (just like yours in the photos).
Hi Simon,
Just want to alert you to a minor typo. You wrote: “But you can’t see something of them in my two recent posts on summer smart/casual” when I think you meant to say “But you CAN….”
Please keep up the great articles. They are the highlights of my morning every MWF.
Cheers
Thanks a lot, that’s so nice to hear
Hi Simon- beautiful fabric. So beautiful that is almost has me looking past how seldom I would personally have an opportunity To wear a cream linen suit! Looking forward to your piece on separating.
Quick question on your tie- is that 9 cm? I can never seem to get quite that strong of a dimple on the typical Drakes width. Thanks.
Yes it is. I pretty much always wear 9cm
Lovely suit, Simon. I would much prefer a suit like this in olive or taupe rather than cream for a first linen suit, but I can see the appeal for someone who already has other linen suits in his wardrobe. May I ask the length of the back seam on thejacket? Are those sleeves made deliberately longer to account for wrinkling? How would you feel about the same color/fabric in a 13oz weight?
Thank you.
Thanks. I just measured the back seam – it’s 31.5 inches.
The sleeves were made a little longer to account for wrinkling, yes.
I think 13oz would be lovely. Perhaps a little hotter, but the linen would look beautiful.
It’s a great looking suit, and it fits you very well, as summer wear its propositions are well, not too close fitting.
I love the detail of the cuff, now I don’ know if the buttons open, the reason for this, it looks great with a long sleeves shirt, but if you were to wear a short sleeves polo which is a summer look with this type of suit, and you couldn’t pull the sleeves up, I think the jacket will look a bit odd.
The pants are fitting well ” new “, it should have been a slight bit longer, what will happen, as you wear the suit, it will crease behind the knees, and further up the legs, so the length will shorten, just the nature of the fabric.
Be a bit brave, pop a color square in the jacket pocket, after all it’s summer.
It’s is a great looking, and fitting suit, kudos to Jean – Manuel Moreau.
Enough said. Jean-Manuel and Nicolas provide top service, stylistic advice and a pleasant environment to talk clothing (“parler chiffons”)
Looks great! Wearing the jacket on its own with grey wool trousers would look cool too if you ask me.
A technical question Simon..
When I see bespoke jackets on a person I’m often intrigued how beautifull the lapels and collor stays in place while the person is moving around. This staying in place while moving.. can that be achieved with mtm? If yes, is it achieved with this suit? Thanks very much.
To a certain extent, yes. It helps a lot if the lapel and collar and made by hand, so you can control that tension – and if you can make a small enough armhole. This jacket has that handwork and is much better than other MTM as a result. But it still doesn’t have quite the 3D shape that a bespoke one would have. It’s a small difference though
Simon – lovely to see another review of a suit; as the most expensive item (typically) in a wardrobe it has to be a carefully considered purchase and these reviews really allow others to see what is out there – whether to compare with their own garments or if they are looking for a new tailor. Also lovely to see continued coverage of a mid range of pricing with high quality – something I think resonates strongly with offerings that you have provided through your collaborations.
I also like the combination of the tie and the shoes; they really work very well together.
Look forward to more.
Great suit Simon.
On another point your shirt collar looks excellent.How high is it at the back,I guess it is perhaps over 4cm?And the length of your collar points,8cm?Thanks,for the info.It will help me when I go to a shirtmaker.
Thanks.
This isn’t as high as my buttondowns – I measured and it’s 3.8 at the back, and 7.5 points
Looks like a lovely suit how do you compare the quality – and the value – of getting a top of the line MTM suit (such as this one, by Moreau) with a lower tier but fully bespoke suit such as by Whitcomb & Shaftesbury or Graham Browne, which is significantly cheaper?
Also, in the case of a premier MTM outfit like Moreau, is there a reason to expect that the second suit would be even better than the first (as you might expect in the case of a bespoke suit by Whitcomb & Shaftesbury?)
I’ve addressed the bespoke comparison above in the comments.
And yes, MTM could still certainly get better. Not quite as much as bespoke, but there is still room to improve the measurements and proportions etc. You also learn what you like out of the style, which is always part of it.
Contrary to your impressions, I did immediately notice that this piece is cut more generously. It’s bulkier than my preference but connotes a breeziness appropriate for a summer suit. The fit looks very good though I do wonder if it’s easier to get right on a roomier suit than one that lies closer to the body.
Yes in general it is. Though I’d say cloth makes a bigger difference to how good that fit looks – it’s weight and composition
Does JMM do a 3 button/two button roll or just a two button?
This is a 3-roll-2
Regarding your JMM appraisal, can you please give me examples for my own education as to how the English, French and Northern Italians do finishing better than Neapolitans? I have always been blown away with the handwork and overall finishing of Neapolitans vs my British bespoke garments.
Thank you
PS…I love JMM and Nico, they are incredible!
Hi Matt,
There are lots of ways, but to focus on the most obvious. Have a look at the fineness of the buttonholes on a Neapolitan jacket, compared to an English, French, Florentine or Milanese one. They are thicker and smaller. Then look at the way the lining is sewn to the inside of the jacket, running around the edges and around the inbreast pockets. It will pretty much always be less precise, and have fewer stitches.
This is very much on average, but it is fairly consistent among tailors in the different areas.
In part, it’s because the cheaper tailors often haven’t survived in London or Paris, and only the top-end remain. There are far more across the range in Naples.
Neapolitan tailors often add lots of handwork to things – such as two lines of pick stitching on the seams and edges of a jacket, or down the side seam on a pair of trousers. But the work itself is often less precise.
S
Simon, I’m fixed on grenadine ties and it looks like yours is a loose weave (garza grossa) unlined tie. If so, do you find it as susceptible as they contend it is to pulling? And regarding the absence of lining, the second-to-last photo shows what I really don’t like with the unlined option – a clear view of the folds on the back of the tie. The tie looks excellent in all photos, except this one where (honestly) it looks terrible. Did it look as bad in real life? Did you specifically want an unlined tie, and if so why?
Hey
Just to be clear with terminology, the tie is not unlined – it is untipped. So there is still lining along the majority of the tie. Just not at the two ends. Here there is no tipping, so the tie is more transparent.
I wouldn’t recommend unlined ties, personally. I’ve had them in different materials, and they certainly do come out of shape easily. But then, a la Tie Your Tie, that might be a look you like.
On this tie, yes I like the fact that you can see the folds. The point of an untipped tie is to give more a sense of wearing a piece of folded silk around your neck, rather than a more finished and solid tube. I hope that make sense.
As grenadine is thicker, you are more likely to also see the folds further up the tie, if it catches the light as it does here.
Cheers
Lovely suit, Simon.
Is it half canvassed?
With a piece in linen, given the lack of structure / drape in the fabric how much structure would you recommend when having it made? Ie padding, canvas etc.
Apologies if I got the terms wrong or mixed up.
No problem.
No, it’s fully canvassed, so the canvas runs all the way down the front of the jacket. All MTM and bespoke should have that. And I’d have it with all summer tailoring – just a lighter weight canvas.
Have a look at my Gieves green suit for a discussion on lightening canvases
I will of course defer to your much more informed view but I have to say I think the trouser length, for me, would make them unwearable. I’m surprised this wasn’t picked up during the fitting process?
It’s always a little hard with linen, because they will wrinkle and shorten as soon as you’ve worn them for an hour or so. And you don’t have that long in a fitting. But it’s not a hard thing to change.
Also, they look shorter here with a higher-heel shoe. Have a look at my recent piece on summer smart/casual to see them with different shoes
I love suits. I used to wear a suit to work all the time.
But I wonder about its future. It’s almost an anachronism now. I have a wardrobe containing suits and mant blazers which are hardly ever worn now. This is especially prevalent in the “new normal.”
I would suggest, as beautiful as these garments are, their days are almost over.
I’m not so sure about that. I think they will become less prevalent in business certainly, which was their mainstay, but there will be jackets instead – there is always a need to be a little smarter. And the suit will remain something for dressing up, for smart occasions.
I think there’s also a good chance we’ll see a (temporary) increase in popularity in the next few years, during recession
Matt, I note your correct use of the plural. However, I wonder if it would have been more correct to say “he should have written” rather than “he should have wrote”? Just a harmless comment, not intended to provoke irritation.
Regards, Adrian
In the meantime, I think it’s an elegant suit but I find linen so hard to wear.
Looking again at the suit, may I suggest that while the collar is good the rest of the back is somewhat untidy and perhaps more significantly, the trouser legs are just slightly too short. Once the wearer has sat down a couple of times and developed the usual “accordion pleating” behind the knees, then the length of the trousers will definitely look too short.
Best wishes, Adrian
Hi Adrian,
I think it might be worth reading the piece again, if you haven’t. I mention that this suit was photographed after several hours’ wear, including lots of sitting down. And, mention that the trousers are too short and need lengthening a little.
Simon can you recommend any specific swatch(s) for my first staple, odd casual spring jacket? Something very versatile.
I live in Los Angeles and it’s quite hot. What oz. should it be?
I have everything measured with my tailor and all I need is the cloth… which I have no clue about so i’m hoping for your recommendation for a color/pattern? Something specific would be nice.
I would recommend either a navy hopsack for something smart, or a wool/silk/linen for something a little more casual, in a brown perhaps.
Looking around 9oz, give or take.
If you look in the ‘Jackets’ category of this site you will find plenty of inspiration, and there is a whole chapter of the Guide to Cloth on summer jackets. Have a read of that.
I can’t give specific swatch numbers because they change every 1-2 years, and chances are mine will no longer be available. Instead look at Loro Piana, Caccioppoli, Drapers, and perhaps Holland & Sherry for the hopsack/mesh
I really like it.
Regarding the length of the trousers: if anything they’re a bit longer than JMM often wears, including in suits, so perhaps he had some influence on the length of yours?
There’s actually a few pictures of him on Instagram wearing what looks like an identical suit, dated June 15th and April 21st 2018 and May 27th 2017.
I agree with so many of the comments above, a beautiful suit. Perhaps my favourite one yet. The cut and fit the jacket looks superb and I am most jealous. Obviously the heavier Irish linen let it keep its shape even after a few hours.
As you have said above the trousers are little on the short side and I would go for maybe 1.5-2cm longer with a smaller cuff but that is just personal preference-each to his own. They remind me of the way my Dad always had his trousers, just to the top of his shoes. I can also see the appeal of having them shorter in hotter weather so as to aid cooling.
I also like the combination of weights of linen in the suit, shirt and pocket square which balance out very nicely.
I’ve just had a dark brown Irish linen jacket altered to fit my long arms and will now search for trousers to go with it: cream or grey. I know you don’t really approve of mixing different colour linens but I’m still considering them before I decide.
Hi Simon,
I am also thinking about MTM options for my first “bespoke” suit. Since I’m working in relaxed office where suit it not worn, I try to find most all around suit which would cover my other life activities (ideally all year round): casual wedding, funeral, dressed up evenings with lady, sportive dressed up events with denim.
All other things being standard – single breasted, notch lapel, natural shoulder, I have trouble deciding cloth and pockets configuration.
I was thinking about heavier navy Fresco cloth which breaks down in separates quite good.
Patched pockets goes well will relaxed office and wedding or breaking down in separates. But is it not too pretentious for job interviews or funeral?
Jetted/flapped, covers both later options, but is bit up tight for casual events or when worn as separates.
Long story short – any suggestion on cloth (fresco being worsted right?) and pockets configuration, for most versatile suit option?
Thanks,
Joe
Hi Joe,
To be honest, you shouldn’t be striving for this. Nothing is going to work well at a smart wedding and with jeans. You need a suit and a jacket separately. Buy one this year, one next.
Fresco or Crispaire is a great option for the suit, but the jacket won’t work with jeans.
For pockets, if you want most versatility, go for flapped.
A very nice looking suit. Lots of comments about the trousers being too short but I’m not sure that just lengthening them would help much. In this post and the summer casual one they seem to already rest on, or close to, your instep but stand quite a long way off the back of the shoe (horizontally). It could be that they might have benefited from a little more adjustment for a full seat to stop them clinging to the front of the leg and hanging off the back. Just a thought.
Yes, nice point Ian. I’ll bring that up when I have them adjusted
Hello Simon!
1)I am big fan of this colour for a linen suit. How would you think about switching the white shirt for a blue one? Just to set the suit apart from the skin-tone? Probably a denim would be very effective in destroying all colonial associations with this suit.
2) I guess this suit-colour would never be business-appropriate in London. Maybe more so in Italy? Nevertheless: The climate situation in central Europe (summers in big cities have become a challenge for business-wardrobes) makes me think of breaking the rules in an act of self-defence here. What are your thoughts on this, if I may ask?
Thank you!
1) Yes a really pale blue is nice, particularly with a dark tie. And yes too, a beaten-up denim would be great.
2) Absolutely, not for business almost anywhere, I think. At the most, I’d wear it with a blue stripe shirt, grey fresco trousers and the linen jacket. That would be less showy and still very summery.
Keep an eye out for our piece next week on working the jacket in different ways.
Simon,
I stand corrected. Thank you.
Regards, Adrian
Though I would not find an occasion to wear it, the suit is highly appealing. Your updated version of Tom Wolfe? Especially like it in the front/profile /back shots, background full of character and contrast.
Some points if you care to comment?
Linen shirt under linen suit?
Whiteish socks? I know you favor same colour as trousers and the reason, but cannot avoid thinking there should be an exception with such trouser hue.
Great tie colour. I am fancying it increasingly. Is it what Drakes calls “Khaki” nowadays rather than “Olive”?
I think it is, yes.
On linen shirt under linen suit, I don’t mind that at all – unless you’re likely to take the jacket off for large parts of the day.
The socks are beige, rather than white or cream. I know what you mean, but I’d find something darker a little jarring.
Beautiful suit and exquisite colour combination as well with the brown brogue and muted green tie.
Does the jacket work as a seperate like the trousers? In generell, is the linen for a sports jacket different from the linen typically used for suits?
Yes it does, in fact we’ll have a post demonstrating that next week.
No, usually the linen for a suit and a sports jacket wouldn’t be different.
What are the most versatile colours for a linen suit when wearing the jacket and trousers as separates?
Hmm, good question.
I think most would work to be honest, but particularly the less smart, more casual colours like brown, green, beige/stone/cream.
Grey doesn’t look great in linen normally, and navy can be tricky (often it looks little dusty and less elegant than other linens).
What trouser colours would you combine with a linen jacket in natural (such as Harrison’s Mersolair 28109 of your linen trousers)?
Are lighter colours like natural or your cream linen here more difficult than a little darker colours like your tan herringbone jacket from caliendo?
The natural would be nice with dark browns, maybe charcoal too.
Yes, those lighter colours are a little more difficult, but less in terms of trouser colours to match with, more the fact they’re a little showy for being bright
Hi Simon,
Breathtaking suit! May I know why you went for the lighter weight H&S instead of the heavier 13oz W Bill? Does W Bill have the same color equivalent? Thank you.
I don’t find much difference around this 11-13oz weight – they’re all Irish linens, from one or two mills (neither are woven by Bill or H&S).
I don’t think Bill does have one though, no. Most of the creams are a whiter than this, in general
Thank you – I do like this ivory cream color a lot and it works so well as a odd jacket as you so greatly demonstrate.
Luca Rubinacci just pointed out this week, that linen as a fabric is not ideal in a suit for temperatures above 25 degrees celsius (he was referring to his half lined suit from irish linen). That was surprising for me. Certainly the weave is more important than the fabric as we learned from you and the guys from the Armoury. Do you have any thoughts on this opposition against linen in the high heat? Thank you very much in advance!
Not particularly, except that I find it fine. I wouldn’t want to be in it in maybe 35 degrees plus, but then in that kind of temperature I wouldn’t be doing much but moving between air conditioning.
I think it’s also a question of priorities. Italian linens have tended to be lighter and so a little cooler, but also more likely to over-wrinkle as a result. See my tobacco one here. I’m happy to deal with a little more heat for a more elegant line – as with the heavier linen version here.
Simon did you ask them to make that jacket looser and longer than they usually do? This is quite different from what Ive seen from JMM elsewhere. They seem to usually make trimmer shorter closer fitting jackets which seems to be popular among French tailors.
A little longer, but not much bigger. I haven’t seen what they do being that short and tight, but perhaps other customers have asked for things to be closer fitting.
Trousers to short .Shoes to formal, should be Loafers tan or suede.tie not properly knotted. Only Gianni agnelli can get away with that. Suit so so .All in all 5/10.
Thanks for the views Dash – FYI for future comments, it’s helpful when you suggest how you would do things differently. Eg saying you’d prefer loafers, and not just saying the tie is not properly knotted.
Cheers
Beautiful suit.
I’m really keen to purchase a MTM suit but wondered if they’re offering a remote service? I would email them but I can’t seem to find any contact details or a functional website.
I don’t know I’m afraid, but I’d imagine so. Perhaps try contacting them through Instagram.
Hi Simon
Many thanks for your detailed descriptions here! I find them most insightful. It amazed me how versatile the trousers are.
Coincidentally, I am currently considering having a suit made from Harrison‘s Mersolair 28109. I think (!) that the colour is close to what you are wearing here. Do you have a view?
Many thanks,
M.
I actually have trousers in that too – see post here.
It’s not as creamy as this, less bright and slightly more biscuity
Thank you, Simon, for the swift reply. It is much appreciated.
I had seen that article, thanks, but somehow was unsure whether the picture or not the picture showed the fabric in question (despite your explicit mention of the maker and # in the text).
That aside, since I have already ordered the fabric, would you be so kind as to share some potential advice on what to consider when having a suit made? Do I need to bear in mind anything in particular. I am deliberately not asking a specific question (not out of laziness, I am just curious to hear your instant, off-the-cuff thoughts!).
Many thanks,
M.
There’s lots of information on that around the site – so perhaps let me know what specifically you’re thinking about, and I’ll suggest some links.
For example, in terms of the style you pick, there’s a whole guide full of articles here.
There’s also a video here on the commissioning process.
And one here on a first fitting.
That video is very useful, thanks! It is always good to return to the basics to save oneself from getting lost in too much detail.
My question, I think, relates more specifically to the linen in question, really. Since you have seen and worn the fabric, do you think there are noteworthy disadvantages to it and can those be mitigated during the tailoring process?
One idea, to give an example, was whether it could make sense to use lining to give the suit more structure as a means to help counter the linen’s creasing (the obvious counterargument being that more lining is somewhat counterintuitive when using linen, given the temperatures linen is likely to be worn in). That said, I am assuming excessive creasing here – and I might well be wrong!
Thanks again for your time.
M.
Ah, I see.
I think you will get a lot of creasing with this material no matter what you do, I’m afraid. Having a full lining won’t make much difference
Thank you, appreciate it.
Hi Simon, what are the relative merits of this cream linen vs. the more biscuity one mentioned here?
A more biscuity colour is easier to wear, particularly if you don’t wear much cream or you don’t live somewhere where it’s sunny a lot. If you’re unsure then that kind of shade is often a better place to start
Hi Simon, lovely suit, and thank you so much for your articles. They are not only incredibly informative, but also very enjoyable reading.
In regards to this cloth, I am actually on the verge of commissioning an H&S South Pacific blue linen suit (as living in a tropical climate I think it would be practical as well as looking nice). https://apparel.hollandandsherry.com/en/fabric/season/ss-19/hs1920
If you have a moment, could I ask whether you think heavy creasing is less likely (or less noticeable) with a herringbone texture (2019303) rather than no pattern (2019109). I am asking as I can ‘get away’ with wearing a linen suit in my office, but would not want it too wrinkled. I am also wondering if you think both of these could be worn as separates?
In that same bunch there is also a lighter indigo linen/wool/teclana mix (2019001) – I wonder what your thoughts on that one would be?
My apologies for asking multiple questions (please do not feel obliged to answer) and thank you again for this website.
Hey Bill,
No problem. In general, a herringbone will probably wrinkle more, but it will also depend on other things like the weight and weave, so it’s hard to say how much this one will wrinkle as I don’t have any experience of it, although it does seem lighter than others I have, so I’d worry about it on that score.
In terms of smartness generally, though, I think the colour will make more of a difference to how formal it looks. You’d be safer with a shade darker.
I would guess that the wool and teclana mix would wrinkle less, but I have no experience of that one either I’m afraid.
Hi Simon,
I’m looking at H&S website but I fail to find this fabric code in any book. Would you happen to know if it is still offered? I’ve been looking for a nice cream linen, but all I seem to find are either too white or a bit too ecru/yellow.
It’s not I’m afraid, sorry. I haven’t seen another I like yet
I believe you mentioned you might be working with H&S to bring this fabric back?
Yes, though no confirmation yet on that I’m afraid
Thanks. Please notify us if successful. Would enjoy having a jacket made in this linen.
Will do
Would JMM’s tailoring suit denim in your opinion?
Yes I think so
Hey Simon
In the post you mentioned that you would do a dedicated post on the drawbacks and uses of cream linen – I can’t seem to find this and would really value one if it’s still on your radar?
I didn’t end up specifically doing something on that, but I did do a subsequent piece showing how versatile a cream jacket could be – see here.
There are also comments on cream linen in today’s post, featuring cream trousers that are a bit more transparent.
Let me know what else you were interested in regarding cream linen maybe?
Thanks Simon as ever!
Things of interest are
– style posts showing the differences between the different tones – yellower creams versus the greyer; darker and brighter. Would be great to understand how these vary in what they complement and in formality range
– what you perceive as the general disadvantages of cream linen for odd trousers. When don’t they work and why
what do you think about linen blends (i.e. linen and silk)? Do they; wrinkle less, drape better…?
They usually wrinkle less, but often have a slight sheen or crispness to them from the silk.
Apologies if this has already been answered, but are the trousers lined? If not, are they transparent? I often fear this with cream/ecru summer trousers.
No, and no there’s no issue with being transparent, but that is unusual with this linen and it’s not available any more I’m afraid. I like this one I had made too, but that is more see-through
Hi Simon, I assume Jean-Manuel Moreau’s jacket has no drape around the chest? Am I correct?
Many thanks,
Jack
Well, not the drape you’re getting from an Anderson & Sheppard or similar, but it’s not close in the chest like most Parisians or Neapolitans. A nice moderate place in the middle
Hi Simon,
Could you go into slightly more detail about how JMM achieve that perfect fit every time? Do they take more measurements than other MTM services? And if so, which ones? Thanks.
Hi David,
I’d be happy to if there were any, but there aren’t – the difference in how well things fit in a MTM system or even bespoke is about the skill of the fitter to translate measurements and then fittings into changes to a pattern, rather than any additional steps.
Makers.and tailors will tell you that their system works with more measurements or different steps, but I’ve experienced enough variation to know it’s more about what works for the brand or craftsman.
This might also speak to a false impression among some bespoke enthusiasts that they can assess how good a commission is or is going to be based on these kind of objective factors, which can then be discussed and communicated to each other. This is usually not the case in my experience
Happy to answer any other questions at all!
Hello Simon,
Thanks for your reply. I suppose the fitter needs to have a thorough understanding of how jackets are put together to be able to make the right diagnosis and communicate it to the tailor. You said more than once that when it comes to MTM knitwear, you find the use of try-ons more reliable than just taking measurements. Is it the same with MTM tailoring? Do JMM or Stoffa use that method too or do they only take your body measurements?
Yes, they do.
But no, it’s not a good comparison with knitwear. With knitwear, it’s because of the lack of familiarity with how knits should or could fit. With tailoring, the reason to have try-ons is more to get a sense of the style. JMM don’t do that usually, and Stoffa don’t really do tailoring?
Sorry, I meant Saman Amel (I always confuse the two…).
Ah, ok thanks
Hello Simon, just to get back to JMM, the process you describe sounds actually pretty close to bespoke, save for the fact you’re being fitted by someone who is not the cutter or tailor. As far as I know, that’s not uncommon at all with, say, Savile Row tailors who will have a fitter take your measurements and the suit cut and put together by other people. That would make JMM closer to what one could call remote bespoke, wouldn’t you agree?
No David, not really. First, there isn’t the same work going into the garment – the iron work for instance. But second, more importantly, the fit of bespoke comes not from who does the fitting, but the extent to which the fit can and is adjusted over multiple fittings. The jacket you get back here is great, but you won’t find JM ripping off the canvas collar on a basted fitting, to repin it and get the balance even more precise. That is a small difference, but it’s the core of bespoke – and why people refer to personal patterns
Thanks, that puts things into perspective.
Hello Simon,
Thank you for a very helpful article. The suit looks excellent.
I was curious about whether 10 oz. was sufficient in terms of weight for the suit to hold. I would like to choose something that can be cool enough for the summer but also be strong enough to survive as a suit (the second consideration cautions against light Italian linens). I would be very happy with 10 oz. and would prefer not to go higher if it can be avoided because it is for summer, but of course I would not like to spend on a suit that cannot carry itself — do you think that it was advisable to go higher (12-13 oz.) for the suit had to hold?
I was also curious about whether the trousers were lined (because with 10 oz. linen trousers in cream, I was wondering if they were transparent).
Thank you, again, for all this information.
I’ve found 10oz to be fine in the jacket, and just about OK in the trousers. I wouldn’t want to go any lighter.
On being lined, that’s answered above: “No, and no there’s no issue with being transparent, but that is unusual with this linen and it’s not available any more I’m afraid. I like this one I had made too, but that is more see-through”
Thank you so much, Simon. Apologies on the lining question — I recalled that I had asked that previously and appreciate your input. Do you suggest that a person could go above 10 oz? Your comment about the trousers seemed a bit concerning. Thank you, again. This post is so helpful.
No worries, and yes I prefer a heavier weight for linen trousers, but the important thing is you’re aware there is a trade-off between weight and sharpness, and make your own call where you want to sit
Hello Simon,
A cream suit is iconic, a staple in the wardrobe some would say. However, all of the RTW company’s I’ve come across haven’t released an irish linen cream suit this season though. The best option I’ve come across is Natalino’s irish linen “sand” color suit (I’m a bit on the lower end of things budget-wise). URL linked so you can see it if you want.
https://natalino.co/products/sport-jacket-sand-linen-1
My question to you is – do you think sand would still be as desirable, but more importantly as versatile of a color in a suit as cream?
I think my biggest concern is its versatility. It’s more muted than cream but cream is a more robust/vibrant color and it’s easy to look online and find good outfits (you included) because cream has established its reputation so well in the sartorial world, whereas sand has not.
2) Also another (silly) question, if I get a sand suit but I want to wear a panama hat, what shade of brown should I go with? I’m thinking a cream, but I want to hear your thoughts on that.
Hey Lucian,
My first thought would be that while cream suits have become iconic, they are not easy to wear outside of a summer wedding or similarly formal event. I almost never wear mine as a suit – always as separates. I wouldn’t call the suit a staple.
So I would carefully consider how and where you would wear the suit, and whether you would enjoy the separates too. Because if you were worried about the showiness, sand might actually be easier to wear.
On the hat, do you mean shade of straw? If so then most would work, with the paler whites being more formal, the browner ones more casual, but almost any shade could work.
Hi Simon,
Being new to this process, I was wondering if you could weigh in on the timing of having a MTM suit made with JMM. I am traveling with my wife to Paris in April for 5 days, and we are from the states so don’t get there often enough that a return trip would be feasible. Should I still go for it or find somewhere else? I really like their stuff and it would be special to get it from there as we’re returning for our wedding anniversary.
Thanks,
Steven
Hi Steven,
I would probably skip it to be honest, as you won’t have time for any kind of fitting, and you’re missing out on a big amount of the fit benefit that way.
Sorry, wish it was easier!
Good advice. Thank you!
Hi Simon,
Thank you for this excellent post. I have wanted to have a cream suit made for some time, and had one specific question: Are there any alternatives that would work to linen? A 100% linen suit requires a fair bit of maintenance, and I do not love the creasing that is a feature of linen. But I also know that cream suits are usually made in linen — so I wonder if there might be any other possibilities that one could explore.
Thank you so much.
There are other materials, like corduroy perhaps, but the problem is that cream becomes smart very quickly when it’s another material, and stands out even more.
Thanks, Simon. Do you think that a gentle high-twist cream, like this one might work, or would it look too strange: https://shop.dugdalebros.com/new-fine-worsted/product/8965-cream/colour/cream/
That looks better because it’s more an off-white, not strong or bright or yellow at all. But still, I think you’d rarely wear it as a full suit
I will certainly be looking forward to seeing the article on cream linen and its variants, uses and drawbacks when you get to it….unless I’ve overlooked something.
Did you see this article on the cream jacket, Lindsay?
Overlooked that…excellent!
Many thanks
Lindsay